


Kedreeva's In The Flesh Meta Masterlist

by Kedreeva



Category: In the Flesh (TV)
Genre: Archived From Tumblr, Archived from Kedreeva Blog, Death, Fanwork Research & Reference Guides, M/M, Mental Health Issues, Meta, Meta Essay, Nonfiction, Originally Posted on Tumblr, Sex, Zombies, cadaver discussion
Language: English
Status: Completed
Published: 2018-12-05
Updated: 2018-12-08
Packaged: 2019-09-07 17:06:40
Rating: Mature
Warnings: Creator Chose Not To Use Archive Warnings
Chapters: 10
Words: 75,794
Publisher: archiveofourown.org
Story URL: https://archiveofourown.org/works/16857937
Author URL: https://archiveofourown.org/users/Kedreeva/pseuds/Kedreeva
Summary: All of the meta I've written for In The Flesh.





	1. Introduction

**Author's Note:**

> All of this is archived from Tumblr. I have included source asks where possible, and some may be missing here from the actual masterlist, if it was written by others (minimal). I've done my best to organize it by topic section=chapter.
> 
> Please note that everything here is my opinion and thoughts only. It’s 100% okay to disagree. I encourage you to have your own thoughts and open discussion about any and all of these topics.

* * *

[prettiest-westcoast-witch](http://prettiest-westcoast-witch.tumblr.com/) asked: Is In the Flesh a show I should invest in?  
Because I'm overall done with Teen Wolf. I'm done with the confusing plot line,  
the random pointless out of character hook ups and Jesus Christ on a pogo sticks,  
I don't even know anyone's full name or age! Don't get me wrong,  
I loved Teen Wolf in previous seasons and I'm a Sterek fan,  
but I'm just kind of over it. So is In the Flesh right for me?

* * *

 

Well, let’s not put anyone’s religion on pogo sticks over it, but yes, the overall doneness with TW that you feel is common ground here.

The shortest answer I can give you is: yes, provided you are not squicked by zombies/the undead (which I have recently discovered a large number of people dislike, are terrified of, or 100% grossed out by zombies to the point where they can’t bring themselves to start watching)

This show has all those fantastic elements TW could have had and chose to ignore. It brings to light issues such as discrimination against a range of groups, mental health issues and how patients in ‘the system’ are treated, consent, self-esteem, suicide, grief, war and PTSD… the list goes on. And it does all of this without ever “shoving it in your face” so to speak- it is there, and you watch the characters deal with these things but at no point do you really get pulled from the narrative by anyone specifically addressing them outright. It leaves viewers with a lot to think about afterward, but their manner of address for these things doesn’t turn the show into a “serial issues” show.

The character development is not only present, but consistent. We see the characters interact with one another in ways that make sense, and if there’s a change in their behavior, it is due to something we have watched happen. Their actions have consequences that they both deal with and internalize into growth and changes. And this isn’t just the main character, or even the main three; we have watched an ASTOUNDING amount of development from Philip, a semi-side-character, and Jem, the MC’s “little” sister especially, but everyone that comes on screen has some manner of development throughout the seasons (Except Gary. Fuck you, Gary… that’s sort of a lie too, though. Gary, as much as he hasn’t “changed his ways” has still managed to develop as a character; it just happens that his development as a character is to stagnate in the community because he refuses to change his ways, and that, in itself, is a form of development)

On top of just character development in general, we also get to see some well-developed female characters, with Jem and Amy at the top of that list, followed by Maxine and Sue and Rick’s mother (whose name currently escapes me, although *gasp* she has a full name too). They have their own storylines, their own lives, apart from and interacting with Kieren. It’s nice, and I can deeply appreciate their presence in the show.

And then, of course, the main romance is great. Part of the reason I’m willing to mash my face into Siren (Simon and Kieren) so whole-heartedly is because their relationship shares a lot of the same elements as Sterek did; Simon wants to be so impressive to Kieren, who is really super not impressed and is mostly annoyed by him at the outset. Simon looks at Kieren the same way Derek looks at Stiles after the pool incident, when they are in the parking lot and Stiles all but tells Derek “You’re not a monster.” Of course there are differences, and actually I like some elements of Siren even better than I did Sterek (particularly the consent, the consent is beautifully done between them, ask me about that and I may never stop rambling).

Anyway, long story short, yes. I have been and will continue to rec  _In the Flesh_  to you and others, because - unlike  ~~Teen Wolf~~  some shows I could mention - it really is worthy of the attention and love. It makes narrative promises that it then does a good job of following through with instead of dropping, ignoring, or fucking up.


	2. On Kieren Walker

"On Kieren"

[_In the Flesh_  Appreciation Week (Day 1: Favorite undead character)](http://rentherotter.tumblr.com/post/93177246121/in-honor-of-our-undying-love-for-in-the-flesh-i)

> “Where did you want to be buried?”  
> “I wanted to be cremated.”  
> “That… didn’t happen, obviously.”  
> “Yeah, no shit.”

Kieren Walker, my very favorite undead character on  _In the Flesh_.

Kieren, and specifically his interaction with Amy, is what sold this show to me. I had seen a couple of gifs, a couple of pics, and then I saw a clip of the scene above (screencap from [x](https://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Fhorror.grande-caps.net%2Fgallery%2Fthumbnails.php%3Falbum%3D33&t=YWUyYjMyOTcwNzBmYjdhOTE0OWUxMWE1MTMzYzIwMzE3MWIzNGVhMSxVdTlxaUdVQg%3D%3D&b=t%3ApDrE-1Xyq8b_UVljyHdNpQ&p=http%3A%2F%2Fkedreeva.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F93700399478%2Fin-the-flesh-appreciation-week-day-1-favorite&m=0)), and Kieren’s “no shit” won my heart in a completely irreversible way.

Kieren continues to be this amazing, beautiful creature. He stands his ground without violence, he holds people - including and most especially himself - responsible for their actions. He strives every single day to make the world around himself better. He is an artist, and a son, and a big brother, and a sarcastic little shit. He has loved and lost and he has not stopped that from letting him love again now that he has been given a second chance.

Kieren struggles with so many things, day in and day out. The way he is treated would probably break most people, and he does break in some ways, but he is so, so strong in others. He has been through some terrible things and there was a time when he gave up, and he has seen that that isn’t the way out, dying isn’t a solution, and he wants to do better this time. He wants to make it count.

I just fucking love this kid, and I want to protect him for all times from everything. I cannot wait for them to get renewed for a third season, so we can see Kieren and all his new adventures and growth.

 

* * *

 

 

“Why did Kieren decide to stop wearing cover-up/contacts?”

[trypie5](http://trypie5.tumblr.com/) asked: So i recently finished watching In The Flesh and I'm still trying to figure out how I feel about somethings. So to help me I was wondering what you would say about what made Kieren decide to stop wearing makeup/contacts. Like obvious he thought that what happened at "the lunch" it was unfair, but it just doesn't make sense to me. Hopefully that wasn't too confusing, thanks :)

Hello there! I would be tickled to attempt to help sort some of those feelings out with you! I have a lot of feels about Kieren taking off his mousse, so if we get lost in them, at least we are in good company!

Kieren taking off his mousse doesn’t start at his family lunch, even though it seems like that is the case. Kieren taking off his mousse starts… well, it starts the moment - the ONLY moment - Kieren is openly impressed with Simon. That small, short moment, when Kieren finds a  ~~handsome… hot…~~  striking guy perched atop his gravestone, a guy who is decidedly unimpressed with the cover up mousse and contacts Kieren wears, as well as the epitaph on his headstone, a guy who immediately recites a bit of beautiful poetry the moment Kieren suggests he would have preferred poetry. For that little, bitty moment, Kieren sees  _Simon_ ; a proud, undead man with a soft, dry wit,  a patient, careful demeanor, and a taste for artful words. The guy he meets in that moment is a guy that piques Kieren’s interest, someone Kieren wants to be around (and arguably, someone Kieren wants to be a match for in terms of strength of character and as a person, not necessarily a love match).

This illusion is shattered quite forcibly in the next moment, when Amy arrives to announce Simon is not only a member of the ULA, but the 12th disciple of the Undead Prophet. In Kieren’s words: “Not ideal.”

However, this is also the man who brought Amy back to Roarton. This is the man who, after what Gary did to Amy, played a part in her return to her proud, beautiful “au naturale” appearance. This is the man who stands in front of Kieren and starts plucking at Kieren’s chords, saying all the things Kieren has worked to forget, about how he shouldn’t have to run, how he should be able to live here openly, how he should be able to be himself, etc. Those are all things Kieren feels (and probably feels doubly so, as these are the same things affecting his first life), and Simon isn’t letting them stay buried. He finds Kieren’s buttons, and presses them like an obnoxious, suave, terrible-sweater-wearing child.

And he doesn’t stop. The next time Kieren sees Simon is when Amy and Simon arrive at the Legion to make a point. Now, originally when I watched this scene, I thought that Simon and Amy where there to test the townsfolk, and I still believe that is why Amy went. But not Simon. Simon knew Kieren would be there, and that entire display was ONLY about pressing Kieren’s buttons, to try to get him to see that the cover-up he’s applied to his view of the entire town is just that- a lie. Below the surface, the town is a different creature than the one Kieren is pretending it is. In that entire exchange, Simon says only one word- Kieren’s name. The rest of the time, he watches Kieren. They enter and he watches Kieren’s reaction (which is basically >:| no, simon. bad simon. what have you done, simon. I’m not up for this bullshit tonight, simon.), he seats himself and lets the world react around him. When Gary starts in on them, Simon simply raises his eyebrows at Kieren, who is glaring MIGHTY daggers at him by then. Simon has got his thumb on Kieren’s buttons, and those eyebrows are saying “I’ll follow your lead, Kieren. What are you going to do, Kieren? You told me this place had moved on, Kieren. Ready to admit I was right, Kieren?”

Which, of course, Kieren gets angry about. He doesn’t like being put into this position. He had thought he was FINE just pretending to get along here, and that if he moved elsewhere everything would be better, and now he’s being put on the spot by both Simon and Gary, and if he has to choose a side to lash out at, Gary’s had the longer run of it. And that moment, the one where he stands up to Gary and tells him to get out, is the first phase of taking off his cover-up. That’s the first instance where Kieren yields to Simon’s button pushing and agrees that something is wrong. He doesn’t like it, he’s very pissed about it, but he does agree.

After that, it’s just one thing after another, to be honest. Kieren is, as Jem says and as we see, gentle. He doesn’t want to fight. There is an amount of shit he’s willing to take to keep things cool, keep from having to fight. There’s an amount of being a scapegoat, getting walked upon by others, that Kieren is willing to take, but we watch throughout the season as everything around Kieren starts scratching at that tolerance threshold.

We see Kieren get blocked from escaping to where he thinks it will be better for him. We see a member of Victus start taking over his town’s council. We see the PDS Give-Back Scheme start up, and we see both Simon and Amy protest it or outright refuse it. We see Simon turning up and, once again, getting between Gary and Kieren, when Gary starts to get pissy about them taking a break. We see Kieren resigning himself to the Give-Back work, because it’s only 6 months (okay, only 6 months, Kieren tells himself. I can put up with this that long if it means getting away at the end) and then we see Simon turn up and press the button that shatters that illusion as well. We see Kieren and Simon bickering in the hospital, where Kieren sees that the rabids are being mistreated (even if he’s unconvinced the treatment center is bad). We see Kieren’s dad getting a little weird about him and Amy and the ULA, in particular we see Kieren have a moment of panic when his dad admits he doesn’t think Kieren killed anyone when Kieren knows he did.

We see Kieren stressing out because Simon is trying to find some way to connect, and Kieren doesn’t want to be a part of the cult, and then Simon does The Thing. He does the thing no one else is doing; he puts Kieren first. He tells Kieren “Yes, here is the most important thing in my life right now, and if you want nothing to do with it that’s fine. You’re important enough to set that aside. Whatever you want, that’s what we’ll do. Okay?”

We see Kieren accept that, and the request he makes is for Simon to join Kieren’s world (as opposed to Kieren joining Simon’s, which he has so far refused to do— this is important for later). And Simon does it, no questions, no fight. He puts on cover up and puts in his contacts - something he is entirely against - because that is the what Kieren asked of him. And they both know how big of a deal it is, which is (imo) the reason Kieren chose this thing… and even so, when Kieren thanks him for it, Simon says “it’s okay” like it’s not a big deal. Like it’s just natural for him to yield to Kieren in this respect… like it’s reflex.

And finally, finally, we arrive at that lunch. At this point, Kieren is under so much outside pressure from the town’s happenings and so much inside pressure has built up from everything he feels, that he is ready to break. He is holding it together remarkably well, because he thinks that he is about to make progress in lessening it.

Because look. Here is Simon, a ULA leader, sitting peacefully at the table with his father (who you remember was tense over the ULA). Simon may be able to allay some of Steve’s fears by being… well, Simon. Sue will feel better about Kieren having friends. Simon may see that wearing cover-up isn’t the Terrible, Awful, Very-bad, No Good thing Simon’s made it out to be, that it can really ease tensions between the living and the undead (and maybe Simon will stop pressing Kieren’s buttons about it, wouldn’t that be nice). I honestly think that Kieren went into this lunch expecting that it would help to start heal things that were causing him problems.

What happens is that Gary turns up and tosses a big fucking wrench into the thing. He and Jem come in wearing RPS (HVF) uniforms, and Gary immediately sets about being rude in multiple ways (I personally am ENRAGED over how he ignored his host’s requests to shut the fuck up, it’s possible I’m even more angry about this than I am about what he says). He doesn’t even realize, I think, how hard he is pressing on an overstressed Kieren, and none of them are ready for the way Kieren snaps.

Because he  _does_  snap. He is nonviolent, as is true to his character, but he  _does_  snap. He is tired of being treated as less than human. He is tired of hiding, and tired of playing along like it’s okay. Sweet, gentle, docile Kieren is sick of seeing Gary (amongst others) get praise for literally murdering people. He is sick of the deaths and plights of the undead being treated as a joke. And the very last people who should be in support of those things happening - his family - let this guy into the house and clearly aren’t going to put their foot down to stop it.

And Kieren takes another layer of cover-up off at the table. He reveals to his parents that he DID kill people, he killed them and ripped them apart and ate them like the predator he is. He tells Gary in no uncertain terms that while Gary is a hunter, Kieren was a hunter, too, and his prey was Gary’s species. Kieren’s hunt wasn’t self defense; Kieren’s hunt was a hunger for blood, a drive to seek out and consume people like Gary. And with Simon, who  _easily_  defeated Gary in a physical match, sitting docile at Kieren’s side, I’m sure Gary got the message.  _You may have killed us, but I killed you too. Keep pressing and find out if I’m still capable._

The major kicker here, is that Kieren gets no backup. Not from anyone, not even Simon (because Simon’s too busy having a crisis of his own). His father outright tells him that he doesn’t have a space to speak, when he was unwilling to put his foot down about Gary telling the same sort of story. It’s the last straw.

Simon was right, Kieren realizes in that moment. Simon was right all along. Things aren’t better here. Things won’t get better as long as Kieren is only pretending. Kieren still feels all the same things he felt when he met Simon - that he shouldn’t have to hide, that he shouldn’t have to be ashamed of existing, that he shouldn’t have to be driven from his home, that he should be able to live like a normal human being if he wants - except the events of the interim between meeting Simon and having this lunch have told Kieren that nothing will change unless he stops pretending.

And that, my dear, is why Kieren takes off the mousse then. Because he has spent the last 4 episodes taking off the cover-up he’d applied to his life, and the last step was wiping his face clean of the pressure the living put on him to appear like one of them. He’s not one of them; they have made that abundantly clear to him.

He takes off the mousse then because he is ready to stand up for himself and the first step is standing up  _to_  himself, and the first step toward that is accepting himself for who he really is.

 

* * *

 

 

"Kieren talking about wanting to have been cremated"

[_In the Flesh_  Appreciation Week (Day Seven: Best Kieren Walker Moment)](http://rentherotter.tumblr.com/post/93177246121/in-honor-of-our-undying-love-for-in-the-flesh-i)

> “Where did you want to be buried?”  
> “I wanted to be cremated.”  
> “That… didn’t happen, obviously.”  
> “Yeah… no shit.”

Every scene is the best Kieren Walker scene, okay? Every single one. That being said, I’m choosing the scene that sold the entire rest of the show to me when I saw the gifs of it.

This scene, to me, was a perfect treasure. I love sass. I love it so fucking much, and here’s this zombie kid with enough sass to knock an elephant on its ass. I hold dear every single time Kieren is so fucking done with something that he lets off steam in the form of dry wit.

And this scene, above all others, because the subject matter is the absolute most touchy, painful of subjects for Kieren. He wanted to be cremated. He took his own life and he wanted to be burned up so he could literally just disappear, so that he wouldn’t have to face the idea of an eternity in a small, dark box because he was scared of enclosed spaces while alive.

Then not only did his parents not listen to him one last time, but he had the misfortune to be brought back to fucking life in that tiny, dark box. He woke up in a feral state during which time gentle, kind Kieren Walker brutally murdered and ate people. And when he finally did get his mind back, it’s to return to the world still without Rick and having to hide himself even worse than the first time he was alive.

If they had just cremated him, none of this would have happened.

If they had just cremated him, he would have just disappeared.

“That… didn’t happen, obviously.”

No shit, he says.

 

* * *

 

 

"On Kieren asking Simon where he went"

            "You have the power to disappear. You left. I looked everywhere for you, where did you go?"

*whips out podium* Okay. Let’s talk about this scene for a moment, because this scene is really fucking important okay?

Because this is what happened. Kieren let himself care for someone that he thought could understand him, someone he thought was like him, someone that he could really, truly, be himself around. And without a fucking word, Rick just  _disappeared_. He left, and he didn’t tell Kieren, and everything went to shit. Kieren’s world got ripped apart when Rick died.

And then he wakes up the day after he has let some light back into his world, let himself start to care about Simon - kissed him, introduced him to his family, and made that devastating realization that he could be himself around Simon, that Simon cares for him BECAUSE of who he is, not in spite of it - and Simon is  _gone._

 _Just like last time_.

There’s no goodbye. They spent time together the night before and Simon gave no indication that he was going anywhere, and in the morning he’s gone without a word and Kieren has no idea if he’s ever coming back.

 _I wrote thousands of letter_ s

_I searched everywhere for you_

_Why did you never respond_

_Where did you go?_

And things do start to go to shit after Simon disappears. Kieren gets arrested, put under house arrest, they tell him he’s being shipped back to Norfolk as a non-compliant, his family turns on him, Amy takes off for a “day trip” she’ll never return from, and Gary kidnaps Kieren, forces blue oblivion on him, and sets him free to kill his family or be killed.

Kieren, from the moment he finds Simon missing until the moment he opens his eyes to find Simon has come back to save him, is so afraid of the past repeating itself.

But the important thing is that Simon  _came back_.

And more importantly, when they are at the wake and Simon suggests leaving because  _it’s dangerous_ , he decides that Kieren is important enough to  _stay_  for.

And that makes all the difference in the world.

 

* * *

 

 

“How would Kieren react to knowing Amy was his feral hunting partner?”

Anonymous asked: Quick question, first off did Kieren ever figure out that the zombie he killed Lisa with was Amy (I don't remember there being a mention of it)? Anyways, how do you think he'd react if/when he does find out?

There was no mention on screen about Kieren realizing where Amy knew him from. If she ever told him/made mention of it, we are not aware of it.

As to how he would react, I’m not sure there’s any reaction to have. By the time we hit season 2, Kieren has made some amount of peace with his life after death. I won’t say he’s forgiven himself, but I think he’s accepted what’s happened and is able to put it into the past. If anything, I think he would feel better knowing it was Amy he traveled with, that they share that link in their past, as awful as it is.

Some part of him, I think, could reconcile that he did help keep Amy alive during that time, hunting with her, helping her find brains to eat… and if she’d been alone in that supermarket when Jem found her, she’d be dead. So there’s always that.

 

* * *

 

 

“Why did the scene where Kieren attacks Gary get cut?”

((There was a scene in the scripts where Kieren approaches Gary and, unprovoked in the moment, attacks him. Gary attacks back to no effect, and Kieren bites him on the arm. He tells Gary if he even thinks about touching a PDS sufferer, Kieren will spread it around that Gary asked him to bite him.))

My guess would be that it violence isn’t in Kieren’s nature, not really. Bill Macey literally killed Rick, and Kieren couldn’t even bring himself to do more than bury the knife he’d used in the arm of his chair. Kieren is  _gentle_ , and according to Jem, has always been, and that’s part of Kieren’s beauty, imo. It’s a core element of who he is… doing something this violent this coolly, with no heat-of-the-moment rage, something that seems  _so_  premeditated, would have been out of his character.

 

* * *

 

 

"On Kieren taking Blue Oblivion"

[pieofthelord](http://pieofthelord.tumblr.com/) asked: Hey! I was thinking about the question on how Blue Oblivion impacts on living beings; i think that the answer may lie in how Kieren manages to resist to it on the cemetary? A few minutes after we are given the hint that he might be turning back, like Amy. Perhaps he was already a bit more human then, therefore the effects were lighter? Just a thought.

Hey there! This is a great thought, and it certainly could be that being closer to living contributed in some way. I think dosage and uptake method was also a factor.

What I mean is, in the Blue Oblivion attack we see on the train, the effect on those people is almost instantaneous. The same goes for the boy who took it at school- it’s less than a minute for it to have effects. And in the second case, we see the transition from effective to cleared-the-system is very short lived as well.

We know that in the first case, it lasted long enough for 13 people to be killed. In the second case, the boy took only half a dose and the effects lasted much less time.

Kieren didn’t take a whole dose. We’re not really sure how much of a dose he actually got (since Gary broke the pill and was messy in dumping it on him, fuck you Gary), or if the manner by which it was given to him (rubbed into his Neurotrityline injection site rather than snorted as is the standard uptake) had an effect on how his body dealt with the chemical.

So, I think the “resistance” we see between him being dosed and the Blue Oblivion taking effect is almost certainly due to his moving toward being ‘living’ again coupled with the manner of uptake, and the duration of the effect being short was probably due to his dose being smaller than standard.

If it’s true that his being closer to 'living’ also gave him the ability to resist the effects, that would be a strong argument toward Blue Oblivion not having an effect on the living. I like that idea very much!

 

* * *

 

 

"On Kieren's Sexuality"

Anonymous asked: What's your take on Kieren's sexuality? Not sure if you've answered this yet, so ignore if you have. I was under the impression he's gay, but I've been noticing a lot of people referring to him as bisexual. Not that this matters in the grand scheme of things, just curious to hear what you think. I would read your ITF answers/thoughts all day!

Ah, I’m gonna word-of-god you on this one, because the creator has told us that Kieren loves who he loves (and as a side note, he also tells us in the same interview that Simon is gay). Kieren happened to fall for Rick, and now he happens to be interested in Simon ([x](https://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.denofgeek.com%2Ftv%2Fin-the-flesh%2F30824%2Fdominic-mitchell-interview-whats-next-for-in-the-flesh&t=MzE4ZjRkZTFmNjgxYmI1Y2Y0ZTA0MDEzODI1NzZhNWEzMDcwMDRhMyw1ZUhPV2FrSA%3D%3D&b=t%3ApDrE-1Xyq8b_UVljyHdNpQ&p=http%3A%2F%2Fkedreeva.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F92589407738%2Fwhats-your-take-on-kierens-sexuality-not-sure&m=0)).

As such, I think Kieren loves based on who a person is (how they think, what they do/say, etc), not whether their physical traits. I like that. I’m sure someone has a label for it somewhere.

 


	3. On Simon Monroe

"On Simon's Character"

[weissshaupt](http://weissshaupt.tumblr.com/) asked: I started to watch In the Flesh like 3 days ago and now I've finished and all I can think of is: I WAS SO PREPARED TO DISLIKE SIMON. Like in 2x02 when he's talking to Kieren by the fire and telling Kieren what there is for him in Roarton (his family, Amy) then he reaches out and holds Kieren's hand and is like 'there's me' I was sO MAd. I thought for sure that he was just trying to seduce Kieren to his cause and I was ready to give up. But there were so many Simon/Kieren things on my dash[1/2]

_I figured I’d persevere bc obviously there was something to them. I don’t think people would love them so much if it was all Simon seducing Kieren. By the end of the season tho all I can think of is Simon is an angel and Kieren had him seduced long before he showed up in Roarton with Amy and just. I really need a third season (maybe a 300th season too omg). Sorry to trash your ask with this but i had a need to share [2/2]_

Ahh everyone always apologizes but this isn’t trash at all! THIS IS ALL PURE GOLDEN TREASURE AND I WANT TO HOARD IT FOREVER LIKE THE SILLY DRAGON THAT I AM.

I WAS RIGHT THERE WITH YOU ON BEING PREPARED TO DISLIKE SIMON. Oh my light, after season 1, I felt like the biggest, most protective mama dragon on the PLANET over Kieren, I didn’t want anyone going anywhere NEAR him if they were not going to shower him in pure, genuine affection and love, if they were not going to tell him he was beautiful and worthwhile and amazing at every turn. When Simon turned up and was a disciple of Bad New Prophet, you can bet I was ready to wedge myself between them and roast him if he said one more damn word. KIEREN WAS MY BABY AND I WAS NOT READY TO SEE HIM GET HURT EVER AGAIN.

And it wasn’t the kiss that turned me around, actually. It was a much more subtle moment, before that first hand-holding “there’s me” you speak of.

When Kieren goes to Simon, it is to ask him for a way to make a run for it. He wants to go to Berlin or Paris or Anywhere as long as it’s not Roarton, as long as it’s not blocks from Rick’s grave or sitting at his parents’ table pretending to eat. He wanted out. He wanted away. He went to Simon because Simon obviously wasn’t concerned about doing whatever the fuck he wanted whenever he wanted wherever he wanted. He must have known secrets. He must have known a way around the rules.

And I think he did. I think that, if Kieren had been someone else, if he had not been important to Simon on a personal level, Simon might have gotten the permit Kieren needed. He turned out to not be The First (though Simon didn’t know that), so even though Simon was interested in having who-ever was willing join his cult, I think he would have let Kieren go on his way.

The problem was that Simon wasn’t interested in Kieren on a cult level. Simon was interested in Kieren on a Simon level.

Kieren says “I have the money.”

And Simon says “It’s not about the money, Kieren.”

And then Simon tells him that he ran away, too. This is a man who tried to escape from his crushing depression with drugs, and it killed him. This is the same man who, a few scenes earlier, caught sight of Kieren’s scars, and recognized that Kieren’s been running away and running away and in this moment, he is communicating that he’s  _not going to help Kieren run away again_  because it  _doesn’t make the problems go away_.

The person talking to Kieren in that moment isn’t Simon the 12th Disciple of the Undead Prophet. It’s Simon, the man who ran so far away he couldn’t find his way back. It’s Simon, the one who recognized another desperate, lonely soul who had been lost down a parallel path once before.

It’s Simon, who probably doesn’t yet have the words to articulate why he can’t let Kieren leave, even though we all know it’s because he wants to stay near him.

So yeah. I feel your feel. I still have whiplash from the turn around I did on how I feel about Simon.

 

* * *

 

 

"On Simon at the Walker lunch"

**PART 1:**

Anonymous asked: Am I the only one who gets second hand embarrassment over Simon's lunch with the Walkers? "I like the way he gave back." Jesus Christ Simon, my awkward, undead, probably former social outcast, it hurts to watch you. Of course the Walkers didn't really do much to make him feel comfortable...

Okay I left this in my inbox for a few days mostly because I couldn’t determine my own feelings about this.

On the one hand, I can assure you that you aren’t the only one who gets second hand embarrassment over Simon during that time; I know people who can’t even watch that whole scene through because they get it so bad. I’m not really wired to feel embarrassment, so I don’t feel the same, but I do feel a lot of other things about that scene, for Simon.

How I feel, more than embarrassed, is sad, just crushingly sad for Simon. Here’s this guy who, for his entire first life, felt like there was nothing in life but waiting to die. His first life was, by his own admission, a lesson in how worthless everything was, just people milling around in misery until the day they could stop. At some point, Simon gave up. At some point Simon got so self-injurious in his actions (or lack of actions, possibly) that it killed him.

At that point, Simon was free. There was nothing.

And then he woke up six feet under, clawed his way out of the ground along with thousands of other people, and began a second life. I don’t think there’s anyone that would argue that’s “normal.”

By the time Simon comes back to himself, he wakes up in the treatment facility. They experiment on him, do horrible things to him in the name of making his second life mean something. He goes home, and the first attempt he makes at starting a “normal” life with his father fails miserably because from the gate that’s impossible. His mother’s blood is on his hands. He is forced out of the only place left that might have lead to  _normal._

So he’s out on his own, and he goes to find Julian, and folds himself into the cult as a follower. He becomes a leader, there, and the relationships he is able to form there are that of two sorts- shepherd and sheep (where Simon admittedly plays both roles depending on who he is speaking to), and the sort of relationship he has with Amy; just enough distance from her to not let it get too far out of hand either way. Even with Amy, there is a certain amount of molding himself to be what the situation calls for (she needs to know she is loved, so he shows her love).

And then he meets Kieren. And Kieren, at every turn, tells him to cut it out, to stop pretending to be what Simon thinks Kieren needs and just be Simon. For his part, Simon initially attempts to be what he thinks is best for Kieren- he is sweet in the graveyard when they meet, soft-spoken and steady. He attempts to be someone Kieren can connect to, someone that Kieren will let lead him (showing that they both have scars, talking about how horrible life was and how he doesn’t feel that way [implying the ULA stopped it], laying his hand on Kieren’s to tell him he wants him there). When that doesn’t work, he even tries to back Kieren into a corner at the hospital by using him to distract the nurse while Simon steals the keys to the cage.

Simon finally gives up- he literally surrenders because he is at a loss. He has tried all the things he knows to be what Keiren wants/needs, and every time Kieren tells him he’s doing it wrong, because  **all Kieren wants is for Simon to be Simon.**

The problem is that  **Simon doesn’t know how to be Simon _._**

When Kieren tells him to be a normal person  **Simon isn’t sure what normal is.**

Simon has never viewed himself as “normal” and when he got a second chance, he wasn’t allowed to “be himself” because what he is, he has been told is unacceptable (being undead is bad, hide yourself. Get out of the house. Be a follower). So when he asks Kieren “what do normal people do” he really, really means it.

Watching him wear his make up, watching him try to be more animated (as opposed to his very still, careful nature), watching his bewilderment at being offered food he can’t eat, watching him scrape for any small talk he thinks “normal” people use (“how did you two meet, etc) is painful for me, but NOT because it’s awkward… because it really illustrates how horrible Simon’s life has been.

Related tags: ((images of Simon telling Kieren to leave it, and Kieren says no, he won't, and Simon's face does a Thing)) #I don't- #what is that face? #Simon what is your face doing in that last gif? #it's not disappointment #it's not resignation #it's not amusement #sir your face is doing something I cannot comprehend #It's not anger #or regret #or even pride #not *oh no he's hot* #I can't- what- just #it's just like oh #okay #i guess we're not leaving it #I agreed to leave it but I guess you didn't shake on it #it's your house i suppose #its like #it's #its retreat #it's like Simon hears him say no and retreats to ambivalence #dread? #there's a little bit of dread #Kieren is upset and Simon can't make it stop #and he knows if Kieren starts this it's just going to make Kieren more upset #and there's nothing Simon can do except retreat to endure it #maybe a little further recognition of the fact that he has no power over Kieren #Simon i need to know what your face is doing here #it's very important to me #please explain yourself immediately

**Related ask** :  _Anonymous asked: Something looks very different about Simon during lunch with the Walkers. Not the makeup I mean, something else. He doesn't look like Simon and he doesn't look like Emmett. It's weird and I can't figure it out_

It’s Simon, pretending to be someone he’d forgotten he was, someone he’s tried to escape, someone he didn’t think it was okay to be. Simon, trying to act like he thinks normal people act, because Simon doesn’t actually know who he is anymore (imo especially since he met Kieren and had his world kinda flopped on its side) and the whole attempt goes sideways because of so many reasons and he probably blames himself even though, like, out of every person at that table Simon is the least responsible for that amazing display of fuckery and awkward life moments.

**Related ask** :  _Anonymous asked: I just read your tags on the "just leave it" scene? Brilliance. Dread is the perfect explanation of what Simon's feeling in that moment. He recognizes the signs of pain, he knows exactly what it looks like when someone's world is about to implode and drastically change. It's small things like that that make me wonder: was that script or an actor being in sync with their character?_

Oh man, you’ve nailed it, too!

That makes me think, you know, maybe “dread” isn’t right but maybe “regret”? Like, this is what Simon has wanted, what Simon pushes for people to do, right? He’s wanted Kieren to be himself. He’s wanted Kieren to shrug off the shame weighing him down, and take pride in being undead.

Then the moment arrives, and he realizes that Kieren wasn’t hiding entirely for other people. He was burying things (lol I’m so sorry) that were hurting him, to keep himself safe from that hurt. Now, Gary’s being an asshole (more of an asshole than usual, and a lot of that’s probably due to Simon being there because I don’t think Gary would have been so disrespectful if it were just Kieren, but Simon /embarrassed/ Gary in front of his “troops” when they met, and Gary is a sore loser), and the only thing Simon’s ever preached that is actually worthwhile is not to be ashamed of being who you are, and Kieren’s right there breaking in front of Simon…

And it’s going to hurt and it’s going to be messy, and as much as Simon wanted (thought he wanted) Kieren to do this, it also hurts Simon to know Kieren is going to be hurting and that Simon had any hand in it and is powerless now to stop it.

That’s kind of off on a tangent, but to answer your question, I think a lot of it for Simon is Emmett being into his role. From what I understand, Emmett  _wanted_  this role, sought out this role, said he was willing to fight for this role/show. I think he has probably fallen for his character as much as we have, and I think that really shines through in his acting. It’s the difference between a teacher who wants a paycheck and a teacher who wants others to get excited about their subject… Emmett, I think, is the latter. He likes what he does, he enjoys the character he is playing, and he wants others to feel that too.

**PART 2:**

Anonymous asked: Hey, I wonder if you could help me, about a thing from ITF. English is not my first language and at that awkard dinner scene, Simon says, he likes how Kieren gave back, and I understand that he probably meant he likes that Kieren is quick on the comeback, but clearly there is another meaning, because Steve gave him a weird look or not? Also what do you think were the parents thoughts about Simon? Did they immediatly think Simon and Kieren were romantically involved? Thanks!

Heya!

The “I liked the way he gave back” is actually (was supposed to be when Simon said it) a reference to how they “work” at the ‘Give Back Scheme.’ You could say that their whole job is defined as “giving back.” What Simon  _meant_ was “I liked the way he gave back [to the community]”

Unfortunately for Simon, the way he said it (the inflection he gave to the words) implied “I liked the way he gave back [sexually]” which is an amazingly awkward thing to say to your new boyfriend’s parents, and it’s certainly not lost on them.

(as an aside I find it doubly hilarious because Simon saying that follows Steve telling Simon “I always say you can’t beat a good bit of beef” which can be awkwardly taken as sexual innuendo as well)

As to what Sue and Steve thought of Simon, I’m sure that they knew he was a part of the ULA, and I assume that with Roarton being such a small town, they have probably seen him at some point even if they never met him. I imagine they were not thrilled with this (and given their reaction of “did Simon put you up to this” and “someone puts a spell on [Kieren]” etc later, it clearly bothered them more than they let on), but it’s important to note that they  _are_  supportive of Kieren outwardly at this point. They welcome Simon into their home and awkwardly offer him lunch and even though Simon asks possibly the worst possible question ever, they both kind of gloss over it. Steve makes a small attempt to get Jem to change before entering (assumedly so that she doesn’t offend Simon, because Kieren already knows she dresses like that).

I think that they didn’t assume straight-away that Kieren and Simon were involved, and that’s not an entirely inaccurate assumption, all things considered. Their relationship, as near as I can figure, is only a day (maybe 2 at the most) old. However, I think that they are aware, or become aware, that Kieren is interested in starting something more with Simon. I think they are also aware that Simon is interested in starting something with Kieren back, and that leads to them assessing him during this time, to a degree.

Simon, for his part, is very aware that he is being assessed by them, and is trying to be on his best behavior- including allowing Gary to tell his story without reacting, and attempting to call Kieren off when Kieren starts his own story. He wants this to go well SO BADLY because he understands how important this first impression is.

Unfortunately, again, for Simon, this first impression goes down all wrong (thanks Gary, fuck you), and they end up with some bad ideas about Simon to start off with. In a way that’s tragic, considering the way a lot of other important people in Simon’s life treated him (his father kicking him out, John betraying him and making him go home after promising he wouldn’t have to, etc) but on the other hand, it makes it even more significant that Sue and Steve extend their hands and hearts to him at the end of Series 2, and express a desire for him to stay.

 

* * *

 

 

"On Simon having/not having feeling in his fingertips"

I like the idea of Simon having a small amount of feeling in his fingertips being the reason he touches Kieren like he does

because in that situation it’s so easy to see why he is desperate to touch Kieren and seems to be so careful and gentle, relishing every amazing scrap of sensation left to him

but I also like the idea of Simon desperately wanting to feel anything again, because he can’t, being the reason why he is always just touching random stuff like fencing just in case it’s different this time

because in that situation, it’s a lot more of a miracle the first time he feels the warmth of Kieren’s skin and the beat of his heart as Kieren comes to life

do you see my problem

 

* * *

 

 

”On Simon going home after rising as a rabid + The Feral Undead“

Anonymous asked: What's your take on the fact that Simon "came home" while he was rabid? Everything else we learned about rabids indicated that they don't really have the kind of higher cognitive function to even recognize their loved ones, let alone remember where they live and go there.

You know, I’m not 100% sure that everything we’ve learned indicates they don’t have higher cognitive function. I think we’d be treading into “doesn’t think like a human/normal human so doesn’t think at all” territory.

I personally see a lot of indication that the rabids (I prefer “feral” to rabid just because rabies is a disease and I don’t think the unmedicated zombies are diseased, they are just… wild? but we’ll stay with rabid for now) are thinking creatures.

Let’s take the first instance we see- Kieren and Amy. By Kieren’s admission in episode 1, they hunted together. They joined up, into a two-person pack, and they hunted down prey together and, perhaps more important, shared in the eating of the prey. This indicates, to me, a level of thought. In a world where human brains are a potentially limited and/or very dangerous commodity to acquire, the act of sharing a kill would suggest that they are interested in more than just staying alive (which, if you recall, is what Julian tells us is the sole purpose of human life… just trying to stay alive as long as possible). We can also assume that, as Amy and Kieren are both seen rising from the grave during the same time period, that they were together from the start, meaning that some kind of bond was formed so that they did not wander off with another of their kind instead.

Let’s take another instance; we see in Kieren’s flashbacks that he turns and sees Jem standing behind him. She has her gun out, which is a very threatening display, and yet… both she and Kieren survive the encounter. Kieren, who is (as we saw earlier in he flashback) an adept hunter of the living and who is accompanied by a second adept hunter of the living (Amy), appears to recognize Jem. At the very least, we see no indication that he attacked her, and she gives no indication in all of her yelling at him, that he attacked her. This leads me to believe that he did, in fact, recognize her on some level, and did not attack her as he might have attacked another living.

And then there’s those two rabids in the woods in episode 2, the father and the daughter. The father had killed (and moved) a sheep to the Den where his daughter was. A mindless creature bent on killing and eating would have killed and eaten the sheep on the spot. Instead, we see another instance where a rabid zombie is acting as a predator; he made a kill and brought it back for his young to ensure the child’s survival. When Dean attacks the girl, the father then attacks him - however, it is of note that Dean made it back to the town alive and well after encountering the father rabid. And I don’t mean “spotted him a distance away” I mean that rabid was RIGHT THERE lording over Dean in the mud. He could have killed Dean, and he didn’t. He chose the sheep instead. He didn’t attack Dean until Dean threatened his child, and afterward he shielded the child with his own body while they were in the net. That doesn’t speak of mindlessness to me.

Then we also have the fact that they recognize their own. We see so many instances of this, every time Kieren rubs off makeup and takes out a contact. When Simon reaches fingers through the bars of the cage in the hospital and plays undead-whisperer. When Zoe and Brian release those rabids from the hospital later and she says “we’re like you!” she is clearly speaking like she knows this will have an effect.

What I think we are seeing is that the rabids are functioning on a level where they have become a species of predators. They are not “rabid” or diseased humans. They are feral predators and they just don’t see humans as… well, equals. Humans are food, they are prey.

So to answer your original question, my take on Simon “going home” is that I see no reason why he wouldn’t. Kieren stayed near his home (he was picked up in the town’s supermarket, so he didn’t go far). There’s a good chance that Simon woke up, rose, and started moving toward where it felt right to go (home), and when he arrived he was probably ravenous (Kieren, when he encountered Jem, had probably been feeding with Amy that day), and there was practically willing prey (because I can only imagine his mother came right to him when she saw him, she was his damn mom, and I believe she loved him). If he was close enough to come home the actual night of the Rising (which his father seems to indicate was the case), then there wouldn’t have been enough warning to say “hey your dead loved ones might come knocking, DO NOT LET THEM IN THEY WILL EAT YOUR BRAINS.” Simon’s father probably caught him at it and chased him off, and that was that.

And that’s about what I think of it. Poor Simon. Every time I think about him I just get sadder for him :|

 

* * *

 

 

"On Simon leading Amy on"

Anonymous asked: Hey there! I love your blog, and your meta posts. I was wondering if you would be willing to talk about Amy and Simon? I mean, I've been trying to get a grasp on what Simon means when he says 'I don't lead people on' when it is sort of clear that he... does? Maybe I'm interpreting it all wrong (just Amy's griefstricken expression when she sees Si and Kier kissing...) or not understanding something. Anyway, you seem to have a great grasp on In The Flesh. Again, I really love your blog. Thanks!

Hello! Well, this is kind of a heavy topic! I would love to talk about Simon and Amy :) I have a lot of conflicting feelings about their dynamics, so I’ll try to take them apart for you.

Before we go anywhere, we have to consider the definition of “to lead on” which I’m going to use as:

> When one person, through actions or words, leads another person to believe that something will happen sometime in the future, when they have no intention of that thing happening.

There are probably a million discussions about one person leading another on, and whether or not inaction counts. It runs along the same track as “is a lie of omission still a lie?” I personally don’t think so, though most people I know would disagree. I typically see it as “if you’re making assumptions, that’s on you, not me.” I can choose to correct an assumption, but I don’t feel like I am lying or leading anyone on if I don’t.

I’m not going to say Simon feels the same way, because I really don’t think that he does. It’s very clear that Simon loves Amy, though I honestly feel his love toward her is brotherly or even fatherly, sort of… hm… indulgent. He enjoys watching her be lively and free and happy. Greenberg said once that Simon is an “old soul,” and when I think of that sort of person, I see this somewhat weary guardian of sorts, and when I see Simon’s actions toward Amy, I feel like that’s the role he plays. Offering his arm to her, smiling that little bemused smile when she does stuff he doesn’t quite get, indulging her when she wants hugs. He loves her, he will protect her, he will indulge her in order to see her happy, but he doesn't  _invest_  himself in the same way as he does with Kieren.

The problem is still that “lie of omission” deal.  He never draws that line in the sand for her, to tell her that their love isn’t (or won’t become on his end at least) romantic. If you hold that inaction counts as a lie of omission, then yeah, Simon could definitely be seen as leading her on (and clearly this is what Kieren believes). Simon clearly knows there is a line to be drawn, but somewhere in their past he decided that drawing it would not do any good.

Personally, I think that Simon tried to draw that line at some point. That “once she’s got an idea in her head no one can get it out” line says to me that Simon probably said something at some point. He was probably soft about it, maybe too subtle, maybe too gentle, trying not to hurt her when she’d been hurt before (I headcanon she told him about Philip, and that really shitty rejection, and Simon was trying to be mindful of that), and it didn’t work. Maybe he even tried a few times, and just gave up because Amy is very, very determined to be loved by people, if you haven’t noticed.

On the other side of this coin, I like to think that Simon didn’t try. I like to think that, plain and simple, Simon fucked up. He didn’t do anything to “put her right” as Kieren says, and that was the wrong decision. Maybe it’s just that Simon didn’t see it that way (maybe he DOES think like me), and he was leading her on by not saying anything.

The thing I like about that, is that it makes him more real and human to me. It’s cool when tv characters are perfect and do everything right without messing up. But it’s infinitely cooler to see a character that just… fucks up. Makes mistakes. Lives with whatever consequences there are, including guilt. Hopefully learns from the mistakes, and does better next time.

I’m sure that didn’t really clear anything up! Basically I think it’s really up for individual interpretation on whether or not Simon believes he lead Amy on. If I had to pick, I’d probably say he did, to some degree, and that he doesn’t see it that way, which is why he said to Kieren that he doesn’t do that.

 

* * *

 

**Submission by allthoselostsocks:**

_Okay so now that Simon is cut off from the ULA, and subsequently his source of neurotriptyline, how will he be getting it? He’s probably got a bit of a stockpile, sure, but when that runs out?_

_I’m pretty sure the Walkers don’t keep a huge amount in their house, and even if they did, it goes quickly with Kieren needing a dose everyday, sharing with another person is not exactly ideal._

_Does Shirley keep a stock? Makes sense that the DPA/H &W would provide her with extra, but even so, with her giving it to Simon every day, she would definitely need to request more and more. Would the sudden increase be questioned and investigated? (For that matter, was the DECREASE caused by many Roarton PDS sufferers joining the ULA noted? Or did those people continue to take their H&W-issued neurotriptyline?) And if it WERE to be investigated, would they decide that Simon should return to a treatment center so they can “make sure he wasn’t negatively affected by the imitation neurotriptyline”?_

**Response by me:**

Well, we know that Simon was making his own NTL, and he was making enough that he could distribute it to the ULA members that were visiting with him (8+ people). I doubt that the ULA was sending him the materials in daily amounts, so my guess is that he has at least a week and probably more likely a month’s supply (or the leftovers of a month’s supply) to work with. Even if it was only a week’s supply (which I personally doubt unless he took a month’s supply and is at the tail end of it), if we count that he would have enough for himself, Amy, and the ULA members he was converting, that’s still 8 weeks (2 months) of solo-supply of the homemade stuff.

Couple that with the 6-month supply that Kieren has (from being ready to go overseas), even if they were sharing that gives them another 3 months for Simon to find another supplier of the materials to make his own.

I don’t think Shirley would have a stock. She was working with Dr. Russo, and I think the stock would be kept at the GP surgery suite.

As for the others having/taking their official dose, I would think that Simon would have told them to continue their prescriptions but just take the homemade stuff instead. With Amy it wasn’t such a big deal at the commune because I think she was pretty “off the radar” so to speak, with no community care officer to tell on her if she wasn’t taking her dose. Those in Roarton, though, are being watched more closely. Maybe not by Shirley, but I can’t imagine Denise doesn’t have her nose in their business, legal or not.

I hate to think what an investigation would mean for Simon, tbh. He was the First Responder to the treatment. He eluded them after he left his father’s house. H&W is “collecting” specimens (Amy). I cannot imagine that they would ignore getting their hands on their first successful test subject again, if they had a chance. And I’m so afraid what they would do if they caught him.

Thankfully, I don’t think it will be an issue for a while. I think they definitely do have SOME time before Simon has to worry about his dose.

**Related Ask** : _Anonymous asked: do you think there is/will be anything significant in the fact that Simon was the first to respond to treatment? Also I just wanted to say I'm so glad I found your blog all your ITF discussion and meta's are so interesting to read!_

Aww I’m glad you are enjoying!

I think the only significant thing to Simon being the first will be that Halperin and Weston will be interested in finding him again after so long. As I just talked about with Allthoselostsocks, Simon is gonna need to get his neurotriptyline dose from somewhere and if he has to order a prescription you can be H&W will notice.

 

* * *

 

"Simon and childhood depression"

Anonymous asked: Umm, I'm sorry if I am ignorant, but I really want to understand this. Simon basically says he thouht life purposeless and meaningless since he could think. Children are quite able to think - say, 5 or 6 years old are capable of expressing adult-like thoughts in specific circumstances, and there are 11 yrs olds reading Dostoevsky. But I can't imagine a child - say 11 - that is already depressed /so much/? And Simon didn't mention any reason - so not a trauma. He may be a drama queen, but?

It’s okay to not know stuff, and it’s really great that you’re willing to ask to learn more, so no worries!

Depression is actually something which can affect younger children than even 5 or 6 years old- in fact, there are even sometimes signs before 3 years of age.

The thing is, there is a difference between depression and being upset/traumatized, and Simon very clearly tells us that what affected him in his first life was depression. He tells us he felt this way - like every nerve ending was exposed, like everyone was waiting to die, like waiting for the darkness to get him - because it was the way he was wired. There isn’t an outside reason, no catalyst in his life needed to cause this. Depression is something produced by one’s own body and it’s something scientists/psychologists still do not understand well enough to actually stop. Some people can be helped by certain medications, which work by balancing chemicals in the brain. But there doesn’t need to be anything traumatic in Simon’s life to have started his depression. It’s completely within the realm of possibility that he lived with it since birth.

If you want to read some more about depression in children, I found you some articles that know way more than I do! [[Link](https://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.health.harvard.edu%2Fnewsweek%2FDepression_in_Children_Part_I.htm&t=NDFiZWMyNThhZDhjMmU3YTk1ZDFjMmMwZmVjNDNiMjY5ZDc2MmY3Yyw1UTkxSU04NQ%3D%3D&b=t%3ApDrE-1Xyq8b_UVljyHdNpQ&p=http%3A%2F%2Fkedreeva.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F95400904998%2Fumm-im-sorry-if-i-am-ignorant-but-i-really-want&m=0)][[Link](https://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FDepression_in_childhood_and_adolescence&t=MDUxN2VlNTY4ODQxZWU3MjI5ZTRjZjRiZDMxNDE5ODU0NWUxZjc5Myw1UTkxSU04NQ%3D%3D&b=t%3ApDrE-1Xyq8b_UVljyHdNpQ&p=http%3A%2F%2Fkedreeva.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F95400904998%2Fumm-im-sorry-if-i-am-ignorant-but-i-really-want&m=0)][[Link](https://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov%2Fpmc%2Farticles%2FPMC2807758%2F&t=MjBjZTViN2IwZWFmMTY2ZDI2ZGQ1NjRkNTU3MWZlZGI5ZWFjMjFkZiw1UTkxSU04NQ%3D%3D&b=t%3ApDrE-1Xyq8b_UVljyHdNpQ&p=http%3A%2F%2Fkedreeva.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F95400904998%2Fumm-im-sorry-if-i-am-ignorant-but-i-really-want&m=0)]

 

* * *

 

 

”Will Simon be worried about relapse into depression/destructive behaviors as he rehumanizes/becomes a “normal” human?“

Anonymous asked: On Simon not wanting to turn back to the “normal” human. since Simon seems to be deviating from the ULA and all that, I still don’t think he truly believes in himself to do anything right or anything at all and I wonder if he’ll be scared of relapsing or going down that really dark path again. And I feel like this would be exemplified if Kieren finds out about what Simon was sent to do to him and gets too angry in that moment and yells at him like Simon’s father did (obviously not with the same malice since Kieren is more gentle but a bit of anger isn’t uncalled for).

 

More questions from [sasquatchkid](http://tmblr.co/mKxqVnbTQb1eS79OaK1NR1Q)!

To be completely honest, I am really, really worried about Kieren’s reaction to Simon cutting ties with the ULA. I mean, I know he’s going to be pleased Simon has done, but I’m worried about when Simon tells Kieren  _why_  he split from the ULA. That explanation is going to include the fact that Simon was asked to kill Kieren and whether or not he went through with it  _he gave it serious consideration_.

Let me repeat this- At some point, Simon  _seriously_ _considered killing an innocent person_. And more than that, considered  _killing someone he cared for_.

Of course he didn’t go through with it, but for Kieren, killing someone (anyone, much less someone you care about) wouldn’t even be a consideration. You don’t kill people, you just don’t do it. Even if they are complete assholes (looking at you, Gary), even if they murder the love of your life and leave his dead body at your house (looking at you, Bill),  _you do not kill people._

Even at the height of his distress, even at the pinnacle of his grief and anger at Bill, Kieren wouldn’t have killed Bill. He buried the knife in the sofa and got in his face and yelled at him, but when Janet started slicing Bill’s hands to bits  _Kieren stopped her_  because  _you don’t hurt people_. Kieren knows that hurting people doesn’t make them better people, it doesn’t fix what they did, it just makes you someone who is willing to hurt people, just like them.

At some point, Simon’s going to have to admit his intentions to Kieren, and Kieren’s going to have to decide how that makes him feel and what he is going to say to Simon about it, and how he is going to behave around Simon in light of this information. And there are two main paths: he can focus on Simon making the choice to break away, or he can focus on Simon’s willingness to consider staying.

I wouldn’t blame Kieren for being angry about the latter. At all. Actually I think it’s in Kieren’s best interest to bear that in mind for the moment, even though I, as an outside viewer, know Simon will literally never hurt Kieren if he can help it, there’s no objective way for Kieren to know that yet. But, as an outside viewer, I hope that Kieren will also focus on the fact that Simon saved his life (and Steve’s life, tbh, as Steve was between Kieren and the bullet in the first place).

Because I think you’re right, I think that Simon does need some indication that he is doing the right thing now. I think that, as much as I want Simon to make his own decisions and find his own path and learn to be a stronger person, that’s not where Simon is actually AT right now. Right now, Simon has just broken away from being a follower, and he’s latched onto Kieren as the next person to follow which is, imo, a really good thing.

Not because I think he needs to follow Kieren, but because Kieren will almost certainly begin showing Simon how to NOT be a follower, and will gently push Simon to make his own decisions (as we saw him doing at Amy’s wake, when Simon was asked if he was staying and he looked to Kieren for a decision, and Kieren kept his mouth shut so that Simon could/had to make up his own mind).

So, will Simon be worried that he’ll fail at “normal life” (ie: being with Kieren, learning to decide things for himself, breaking away from the ULA, incorporating himself into the community, etc) and resort to the same drug problems he encountered in life to escape the despair that comes along with that? Yeah, who wouldn’t be worried about that, having been through what Simon survived (or, well, didn’t)?

But I don’t think Simon is in the same situation he was in when he was alive. I don’t think that the physical cause of his depression (ie, if there were chemical imbalances, or causes due to his physical brain design, etc) will return with his second life, which I think will aid him in keeping his head above water this time. And I really, really hope that Kieren will be able to handle the situation between them with grace, and be able to show Simon that he’s capable of successfully making good decisions for himself.

 

* * *

 

 

”What happens if the Living take blue oblivion? Re: Simon’s depression returning“

Anonymous asked: I can't stop thinking about Simon and whether or not him coming back to life (if, in fact, that is in store for them all) will bring back his debilitating depression. I can't stomach the thought of his compression under the weight of it. I wish I hadn't thought of it. I wonder if anyone would develop a "Life Suppressant" of sorts... I think Simon would appreciate the irony of such a name for a compound like that.

I think it’s entirely possible and yet not probable that Simon would return to his depressed state post-rehumanization. It’s possible, due to it not being a physical injury or an injury which would then kill him again, that his depression would not be altered by whatever force is healing their physical wounds/degradation in order to bring them back to life safely.

However, considering that it was Simon’s depression that lead him to doing drugs and we assume that the drugs lead to (or lead him to situation which caused) his death, it would seem a bit unfair on a “fate” level, if Simon were to come right back to that (the same way it would seem unfair to me if Amy’s injuries were healed but she still had leukemia, and the same way it would seem unfair if Kieren’s anxiety returned with his heartbeat).

If I had my way, they would spend time worrying that this would be the case, trying to determine what they are going to do  _when_  those things come back into their lives, but ultimately when the moment comes, they are set free from those ailments and allowed to live without depression or fear/anxiety.

In regards to the “life suppressants” someone recently asked me “What happens if the living take Blue Oblivion?” and I didn’t have a good answer. We’ve never seen a living person take it.

Judging by the premise of the neurotriptyline medication (it is a medication which produces/introduces/simulates/causes the brain to produce chemicals it has stopped producing, and after 24 hours these chemicals have degraded enough that the PDS sufferer taking them is returned to a feral state), Blue Oblivion works by inhibiting the uptake of neurotriptyline, rather than destroying the chemical. I say this because if it destroyed the chemical (which would return them to a feral state) then they wouldn’t be able to come back until re-dosed, but we see two people return from its effects without another dose of neurotriptyline.

Taking that into consideration, is there a possibility that if a living person took Blue Oblivion, they would become rabid? Could something like Blue Oblivion be modified to cause the brain to return to the PDS state of being, where Simon’s brain doesn’t produce the other chemicals which may have been responsible for his original depression? Would he be rabid or simply the same as he was on neurotriptyline? What would the effects of that be, I wonder…

Hm hm hm… this show could go so many fantastic places. I hope we get a third season so we can get more answers!

**Related Ask** : [pieofthelord](http://pieofthelord.tumblr.com/)  _asked: Hey! I was thinking about the question on how Blue Oblivion impacts on living beings; i think that the answer may lie in how Kieren manages to resist to it on the cemetary? A few minutes after we are given the hint that he might be turning back, like Amy. Perhaps he was already a bit more human then, therefore the effects were lighter? Just a thought._

Hey there! This is a great thought, and it certainly could be that being closer to living contributed in some way. I think dosage and uptake method was also a factor.

What I mean is, in the Blue Oblivion attack we see on the train, the effect on those people is almost instantaneous. The same goes for the boy who took it at school- it’s less than a minute for it to have effects. And in the second case, we see the transition from effective to cleared-the-system is very short lived as well.

We know that in the first case, it lasted long enough for 13 people to be killed. In the second case, the boy took only half a dose and the effects lasted much less time.

Kieren didn’t take a whole dose. We’re not really sure how much of a dose he actually got (since Gary broke the pill and was messy in dumping it on him, fuck you Gary), or if the manner by which it was given to him (rubbed into his Neurotrityline injection site rather than snorted as is the standard uptake) had an effect on how his body dealt with the chemical.

So, I think the “resistance” we see between him being dosed and the Blue Oblivion taking effect is almost certainly due to his moving toward being ‘living’ again coupled with the manner of uptake, and the duration of the effect being short was probably due to his dose being smaller than standard.

If it’s true that his being closer to 'living’ also gave him the ability to resist the effects, that would be a strong argument toward Blue Oblivion not having an effect on the living. I like that idea very much!

 

**Related Additional Meta** :

_Anonymous asked: What would happen if a normal person, non PDS sufferer, with fine health consumed Blue Oblivion?_

angelrecipe:

> This is actually a really interesting question??? I’m absolutely no doctor or anything so I’m sorry if something here is like, cringe-worthy scientifically inaccurate..
> 
> Neurotriptyline artificially manufactures cells in the brain. The reason the undead are able to act like living people is because of the drug causing gial cells to be formed despite the body itself being dead.
> 
> ((From Script: KIEREN (coming back to the land of the living) Neurotriptyline artificially stimulates the neurogenesis of gial cells. Cells I can't produce anymore. Gial cells are vital for proper brain function.
> 
> Presumably, Blue Oblivion undoes that. It stops neurotriptyline from working, right? It makes someone who is using neurotriptyline in order to function lose control of who they are and become rabid, which according to In the Flesh is caused by a lack of gial cells. It probably causes either rapid deterioration of gial cells, or it creates some sort of… block against the neurotriptyline. Like it counteracts it and stops it from working..
> 
> If it’s the former, Blue Oblivion causes gial cell deterioration, I imagine for a living person it could be really really dangerous and even fatal? But if it only blocks against neurotriptyline, then someone taking it without being undead/taking neurotraptyline would probably… not be effected??
> 
> And it makes sense that’s how it works, because I can’t imagine Kieren fighting against a drug that actively destroys the cells that his body needs to function properly. It’s not physically possible, is it? But if it just creates some sort of blockage against the neurotriptyline, causing it to stop its artificial neurogenesis, then hypothetically Kieren could possibly force his body to… stop blocking it? And a living human, who isn’t relying on neurotriptyline to create gial cells, wouldn’t be effected at all, because they make the cells naturally…
> 
> So  **tl;dr**  if Blue Oblivion effects gial cells, it could probably be fatal or at least incredibly dangerous for a living human. But if it effects neurotriptyline specifically, as in creating some sort of block that stops it from working, it likely would not effect a living person, at least not fatally, because they aren’t actually using neurotriptyline to function
> 
> It could have some weird side effects though…

  **My Response:**

Actually, I can help here!

We can infer that the method of action Blue Oblivion takes is to block the uptake or function Neurotriptyline, not to destroy cells. This is because if it worked to destroy the cells, then the rabid state Blue Oblivion induces would not be temporary, as the glial cells (and it’s [glial cells, not gial](https://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FNeuroglia&t=N2JkZjcwZGMxYTRkNGQ5ODRkMzdjMGZkYmY3NGQ3NmZiNTE5MmJjMSxDbGt6Q3JFTg%3D%3D&b=t%3ApDrE-1Xyq8b_UVljyHdNpQ&p=http%3A%2F%2Fkedreeva.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F129518725094%2Fwhat-would-happen-if-a-normal-person-non-pds&m=0), as far as I know, unless the script was aiming for “close but not real” like they did with the name Neurotriptyline/Nortriptyline, the latter being a real drug which treats depression I’m sorry this got off track) in a rabid undead person would be completely gone after the Blue Oblivion had ‘worn off’ so to speak.

Instead, we see that users come back to themselves afterward; the boy in the school returns to himself after a short period of time, and Kieren as well experiences a short period of rabidity before returning to being himself. This suggests that we’re expected to understand that Blue Oblivion works in counter to Neurotriptyline via its temporary effects.

One might be able to argue that in both the above cases, a full dose of Blue Oblivion was not taken. This is true. However, we also know that Neurotriptyline works on a 24 hours basis, and that when the undead person begins to lose glial cells due to the drug wearing off, the transformation from functioning person to rabid undead is nearly immediate- in the garage, we see Freddy deteriorate in certainly less than an hour, probably closer to 15-20 minutes. This suggests that even a small loss in functioning glial cells is, for the undead, something from which one does not recover.

So, even if someone took half a dose and only lost half their Neurotriptyline-created glial cells, it appears via examples like Freddy’s that without another dose of Neurotriptyline, the person would not return to a functioning state like the high schooler or Kieren did, which means that it’s most likely that Blue Oblivion works by inhibiting the function of Neurotriptyline.

It gets dangerous if, instead of acting upon the Neurotriptyline, Blue Oblivion acts to interrupt the function of glial cells themselves. Glial cells are responsible for bringing food and oxygen to your neurons, and without that for even short amounts of time, brain damage can begin to occur.

 

* * *

 

 

”Will Simon stay at Amy’s post series 2?“

Anonymous asked: Do you think Simon can really stay in Amy’s house? Talk about triggers, it’s where he housed the ULA people, and it’s Amy and she died and I find it weird he’ll want to stay there?

Absolutely, I think he can stay there, especially since there’s not a better option, not really. It’s not like there are hotel rooms in the area, just the B&B and as improved an opinion as Sandra had at the end of S2, I think boarding a PDS sufferer would be… beyond her capacity for the moment. The other option is staying with Kieren, and that’s super unlikely for the moment.

As far as we know, Amy doesn’t have anyone else that she’s related to left alive (she was visiting her nan’s grave, which implies that her parents aren’t around, my guess is that they died when she was little and she was raised by her grandmother), so there’s no one except Kieren, Simon, and Philip to handle her things after death.

She’s obviously willed Kieren to be executor of her estate, but Kieren packing up her stuff alone is heartbreaking. I think Simon would help to pack up her stuff, at the very least, and as he doesn’t have anywhere else to go, that’s as good a place as any.

Also, there’s something… hm, comforting? About being in the places where the people you loved used to be. At first, it hurts so much to be in those places (I couldn’t sleep in my own room for a long time after I lost Gizmo, because I couldn’t stand him NOT being there anymore) but after a while it stops hurting and you start needing those places, you start needing to be in those places because you realize you can’t forget those people. You start especially needing to hang onto the things that person loved, or things that remind you of them.

I don’t think Simon would abandon the bungalow. Simon’s not a stranger to hurt, which is unfortunate, but I think it means that the pain of being in the place Amy lived isn’t going to be enough to chase him off. He also won’t want to let the ULA into that space, because it was, in part, their fault she’s dead. I mean, it’s not the fault of those particular townsfolk, but it is because of the ULA and the beliefs the prophet is giving them (which were picked up by Maxine), that Amy is dead.

There’s also a good chance that Simon will try to talk around the ULA members, and turn Amy’s bungalow into a safe house again, this time for those undead that want to break away from the ULA. They followed him once, and I don’t think everyone is as extreme in their beliefs as Zoe is.

**Related Ask** : [itwastheband](http://itwastheband.tumblr.com/) asked: _thank you so much for answering my last post so quickly - it's been a crazy couple of days, so unfortunately I haven't had the time to reply yet, but I did see it! :) In regards to Simon living in Amy's bungalow, one thought I had is that Simon might not be able to live there because the ULA can find him there (or Zoe might decide to take the place over) making it hard for him to go back. So I wonder if this is supposed to parallel back to when his father kicked him out in a fit of rage._

Haa no problem! I had fun :)

I think that, it being small-town Roarton, if Simon intends to stay near Kieren, then there’s nowhere Simon’s gonna be able to go that the ULA members won’t find him. Like, even if he got out of the bungalow, there are not very many places to go within the town, and the places open to Simon are places people like Zoe would check or seek him out at.

Additionally, I think at this point it’s going to matter more that Simon puts in roots here. If they’re going to find him anywhere anyway, then it’s better they find him someplace that is on his terms, his ground, his territory. The town isn’t happy that Amy was killed and that they were manipulated by Maxine, and they aren’t happy that the ULA members in the town are there, especially after the display in the graveyards for the second rising. They are more likely to try to defend Simon if they see him as a part of the community rather than a visitor, someone who isn’t leaving, someone who lives there.

I think that if Zoe tried to take over the bungalow, it wouldn’t be Simon that chased her out- it would be Kieren. Considering his stance on the ULA, and now with the ULA beliefs having taken Amy away from him, there’s zero chance (in my opinion, anyway) that he would put up with the ULA members gathering in Amy’s space. Simon, yes, but not the ULA members.

 

**Related Meta** : [not-much-rhymes-with-emma](http://not-much-rhymes-with-emma.tumblr.com/)asked: _Adding a point to your 'Simon staying in Amy's bungalow' meta; at the end of the script for ep 6 there's a scene where Julian goes to the bungalow and waits for Simon to return with a nasty array of bone cutters. As this didn't make the final episode there's a chance this may come up at the start of next season instead. How do you think that sort of situation would pan out?_

I don’t remember if I got this last night or the night before because I went into this tailspin of excitement/worry because I haven’t made it that far into the scripts (i’m reading them as we do the podcasts, actually) and this is major.

I went and read the scene (I read the scene like 15 times and made a lot of inhuman noises and then went and set up a protective barricade around Simon, geezus) and I must say… I really hope this IS how S3 starts. I want to pick up S3 right where S2 is leaving off because we’ll get to see how it all pans out.

As for this particular scene? It really depends on if Simon arrives home alone or not.

If Kieren accompanies him back to the bungalow at this point, then the situation could get ugly really fast, but I think that it would be better for Simon in the long run. Because there’s no way Julian doesn’t go for Kieren when he realizes that Simon brought the First right to him (because remember Julian doesn’t know Kieren’s not the First). And of course, Simon would have absolutely none of that; he would definitely best Julian in a fight if it was to protect Kieren.

However, if Simon returns alone… I can see Julian besting him in a fight because Simon doesn’t want to hurt Julian. Julian saved him. Simon owes Julian a lot, friendship at least, and Simon is probably still going to be fighting the guilt of letting down the ULA/Prophet/other undead who were counting on him to start the Second Rising and be their salvation.

But, if Simon is alone, I suspect he would be able to talk his way out of being killed by Julian. You know… ‘no, no, Julian, wait, it wasn’t him, it wasn’t Kieren, I was wrong. He’s not the First’ or something to that effect. I don’t know whether Simon would necessarily try to show he was on the same side as Julian, because that can get into tricky territory for Simon, but there are definitely verbal paths out of being killed, I think. Especially if he convinces Julian that Kieren wasn’t the First, that he didn’t fail or betray them, he was just wrong.

So, I dunno. I definitely don’t think that Julian would kill Simon. I mean I think that he WOULD kill Simon, of course he would, but storyline wise, I don’t see that being the path the story would take. But I’d be very interested to see Simon’s reaction to seeing Julian willing and ready to kill him (and apparently saw him into pieces?? JULIAN NO). I think it’d only cement Simon’s decision to turn away from the ULA.

 

* * *

 

 

"Response to Simon’s manipulation techniques with Amy/Kieren"

Original Text: 

[cosmosbrown](http://cosmosbrown.tumblr.com/post/96327815616):

> thinking about simon’s empathizing as a means of bringing people into the ULA with [hauntedmusain](http://tmblr.co/mViOOXbYfFvg8Y41sbjc-sg)
> 
> simon is a great speaker and he’s good at relating to people– so far as it gets him what he wants. what really gets me is when he showed kieren his scars. it didn’t feel like a genuine moment of vulnerability and connection. it was to get kieren to see that simon was like him, so kieren would change his mind about the ULA and make it easier for simon to figure out who was the first risen. we see a vulnerable simon later in the series– and that wasn’t it.
> 
> he leads amy on not because he doesn’t want to hurt her, but because a hurt amy is less useful to him than an amy who hangs on his every word. and then when he’s actually interested in someone (kieren) he moves like a predator catching prey, kisses kieren to convince him to be with him ([you can check out a gifset here](http://zoroasterperetola.tumblr.com/post/88583799160)).
> 
> what’s great about kieren is that he shuts him down immediately because kieren sees through all of his bullshit. kieren sees through the charm and cadence of the missionary simon’s trying to be. kieren calls simon out on brainwashing, and while you might think simon’s right, kieren isn’t wrong.
> 
> simon doesn’t empathize– he evangelizes. simon plays with a motive up until the last episode, when he decides that while “there’s what he believes, and then there’s kieren,” the latter may be more important to him.

**My Response** :

This is a cool idea, except for that you’ve got two conflicting points here:

> he leads amy on not because he doesn’t want to hurt her, but because a hurt amy is less useful to him  
> ———-  
> kisses kieren to convince him to be with him

When you actually go to the [gifset](http://zoroasterperetola.tumblr.com/post/88583799160), it is of the moment that Simon goes to kiss Kieren in the kitchen. Which is fine, except that kissing Kieren in that moment would alert Amy to what was going on- something that you just stated he doesn’t want to do.

I don’t think - in that moment, anyway - that it would be worth it, to trade Amy being hurt for Kieren liking him, especially considering how independent and resistant Kieren is (and considering that this is also happening before the lunch where Simon finds out Kieren is more important than just another undead.

Purely from an objective standpoint, Amy is currently providing Simon a place to stay during his hunt, and she is providing a safe, private place for the ULA members to meet (and we see they don’t have anywhere else, as the “meeting” they have after Amy is killed and Simon is excommunicated as a traitor. Simon is (must be) aware that alienating Amy  _will also lose him Kieren_.

If he wanted to draw Kieren in, if that was his main goal, that moment was not the moment to try to kiss him. Simon’s soft “well, then she’ll know” is in direct contradiction to him only wanting to manipulate Kieren, as well as contradicting the idea that he is only “leading Amy on” because he thinks she is useful; if either of those things were strictly true, Amy finding out about him and Kieren at that moment and in that manner, is practically a worst-case scenario that I really don’t think Simon would put himself in. He would be taking a HUGE risk, the risk that Amy would get upset and an upset Amy would lead to an upset Kieren and he would lose them both.

So, I think it’s an interesting thing to bear in mind, but I’d have to disagree with those points.

 

* * *

 

 

"Will Simon's father return in series 3?"

[cryptic-bane](https://cryptic-bane.tumblr.com/) asked: An in the flesh query because your meta is great: do you think Simon's dad will return in the next series, and, if he does, do you think he and Simon will sort everything out with each other?

Whew, sorry I’m getting back to you so late!

I think they would be hard pressed to bring back Simon’s dad in any way that really had…. relevance, I guess. The way they left season 2, it looks like season 3 would revolve more around the rehumanization of the PDS, starting with what happened to Amy, which would lead us to Halperin and Weston. We’ve got the ULA closing in on Simon and Kieren, and Victus is on the rise to power.

There’s a slim possibility that they could find the time to deal with Simon’s dad in person at some point, but to be honest, I don’t see it happening as a “sort everything out” situation… if Simon’s dad returns, I think it would have to be a “the past come back to haunt you” sort of deal, where he shows up at the worst time for Simon.

Given that Simon did kill his mother, the woman Simon’s father obviously loved very deeply, I don’t expect that he will ever really forgive Simon, regardless of what state Simon was in when he did it. It’s one thing to forgive someone for having killed another person, even someone you knew (like Jem is working to do in regards to Kieren having killed Lisa), and another thing entirely to have someone - even or perhaps especially kin - kill the person you are in love with.

So, even if Simon’s dad does return… I wouldn’t personally expect anything happy to come from it.

**Related ask** : [cryptic-bane](https://cryptic-bane.tumblr.com/) asked: _ok, a few questions. a) do you think we'll see simon's dad next series b) if we do, will simon react negatively (even though i think that he has had significant character growth since he left his dad and that his dad would be the person reacting badly, even though seeing simon getting really angry would be interesting) and c) how do you write such perf meta geez you're putting the rest of us to shame_

Hey there! Well, the first part of your question has been answered!

As for the second part, I think it really depends on when and how Simon’s father turns up. There’s a big difference in seeing Simon’s father in a situation where, for instance, he’s died and Simon is attending his funeral versus a situation where Simon’s father has gotten negatively involved with an organization like Victus. We don’t know anything about what Simon’s father has been doing since they last saw one another.

To be quite honest, I don’t really see Simon’s father as the “getting involved with organizations” type, so the only way I’d see him coming back is if he died. In that situation, I think Simon would be liable to take it pretty hard; they parted on severely poor terms and it doesn’t appear that either of them made any attempt to reconcile.

Even if his father came back in an alive capacity, I don’t think that Simon is in a place where he would be hurt by his father being “against” him since that’s pretty much where they left off (which is another reason I don’t see him coming back alive, there’s very little to gain for the characters in that situation, since that arc already played out).

And I just write down what I think! I suppose it helps that I spend all my free time writing stories and reading stories, so extrapolating where stories might go and what stories might do along the way is basically my hobby. I’m not alone though! I’ve seen a lot of other people write some great meta and thoughts for ITF, too :)


	4. On Kieren and Simon

"What I like about Simon and Kieren together"

Anonymous asked: I wanted to ask the super general question of what you like about Simon and Kieren's relationship. Is there something specific you enjoy about it or is it the whole thing or did it evolve (or something idk I'm bad at asking questions but I'd really like to know /0\\)?

Okay I was going to answer this dayyyys ago when [Greenberg did](http://greenbergsays.tumblr.com/post/94809323578), but then I realized this is basically going to be a novel because you are, surprisingly, the very first person to ask me this so you’re going to get the full novel. So grab some tea, have a seat, and get comfortable.

 

To understand how I feel about Kieren and Simon’s relationship, you have to understand how I feel about these characters on their own.  **Let’s start with Kieren because he’s my favorite.**

Kieren is this guy, this  _kid_  really, who originally left the world of his own accord. It wasn’t an accident, it wasn’t misfortune, it wasn’t anything other than a choice he consciously made. I wish on every star in the sky that he had never, ever felt that this was the necessary and only solution to his problems, but he did, and he felt this way because he experienced some of the worst in human behavior.

What Kieren faced in his first life was a mash of hellish human behavior from almost all sides. You have his family, who doesn’t really understand him and doesn’t know how to communicate with him… and instead of trying to learn, their coping mechanism is to ignore the problem (until it goes away, which it did… Kieren went away, and they still didn’t fucking learn a damn thing). Looking at the rest of Kieren’s life, he was in a position where he almost certainly was in desperate need of someone to talk to, and his family failed so fucking hard at that.

Step outside of his family and let’s look at the town in general. Small, rural town full of people who resist and resent change. Things have gone a certain way for a long time and worked just fine. Throwing Kieren into the works, this punk-rock kid who values creativity and talking about problems and doesn’t like taking anyone’s shit when they try to tell him to sit down and shut up, who dresses “weird” and listens to “weird” music (wouldn’t be surprised if they tied his music and weirdness to ‘the devil’ and whatnot, considering Vicar Oddie’s stance on things which are different) and doesn’t like girls like a proper boy should… We know Kieren was banned from The Legion, and we know at least Bill Macy - who has a lot of influence in town - hated him.

And then look closely at the town. Who are Kieren’s friends? He literally  _has none_. There is no one, not one fucking person, who comes to visit with him after the town is aware he has come back. The closest we get is that he acknowledges Philip having said he wanted to go into politics, and Rick joking about the stuff they used to do (which I assume was with Rick’s friends, not with Kieren’s friends). Outside of Rick, there is no one in the town. Kieren is  _alone_.

Okay, but thank god, at least he has Rick, right? Wrong. What Kieren had with Rick was incredibly unhealthy, in my opinion [originally hyperlinked, see 1st entry of Rick | Rick/Kieren chapter]. Kieren was there for Rick, but I do not believe that Rick was there for Kieren. I think Kieren watched Rick get told what to do by his father, and watched Rick be literally unable to break away from what his father preached to him, unable to turn away from what stupid, shitty things he was being told in order to be with Kieren like Kieren needed. I can only imagine how FRUSTRATING that must have been for Kieren, to watch this happen and to love this boy SO MUCH and to just… not… god, Bill was so fucking shitty and yet Rick kept putting Bill’s beliefs and words first, and Kieren kept making excuses for him, thinking he would change, thinking it was a front for his father. _  
_

Then Rick leaves, and that’s… that’s it. Kieren’s family isn’t there for him, the town hates him, Bill hates him and probably takes every opportunity to make Kieren’s life miserable, and there’s no one for Kieren to turn to. Not one person. Kieren is alone and in pain and without hope for a way out of it except to let it all bleed out of him until there is just nothing.

Then Kieren wakes up, and he’s a monster. He was gentle, he was kind, he had experienced SO much hurt and pain in his life that inflicting it on others was unthinkable, but that is what he spends the Rising doing- killing people, hurting people, taking loved ones away from people. It’s horrifying, and when he comes back to himself he’s a mess of guilt and there’s all these people telling him that it wasn’t his fault, and then there’s this prophet guy who is doing 2 things- 1) he’s trying to tell the undead that they’re better than the living (calling for revolution that will potentially cause MORE hurt), and 2) distributing blue oblivion which Kieren has seen first hand frighten, injure, and kill people. It’s wrong, it’s wrongwrongwrong and he rightly decides he wants nothing to do with it.

**Okay, so there’s Kieren when he meets Simon. Let’s take a look at where Simon comes from.**

Simon’s first life starts off splendidly with a severe case of depression, at the very least. He describes his first life as feeling  _all the time_  like every nerve ending in his body was left raw, red, and exposed. He describes feeling like life was pointless, just an exercise in waiting for death. He describes at least one instance (going to America) where he attempted to find a way out of that feeling, a way to make it go away, but not being able to do so.

This horrific feeling, one which no one should unwillingly have to experience for any duration of time, much less all of their life, leads Simon to doing drugs - a LOT of drugs by his own admission - to try to dampen down that feeling. Everything feels so fucked up for Simon that taking “the A to Z of the periodic table” doesn’t feel like it could possibly fuck up his life any further.

Now, there’s nothing really obvious about this in the actual show, but I have to assume that if Simon did have any friends in life, the drug use drove them away, too. I assume this because when his father kicks him out after he returns home undead, Simon isn’t shown going to try finding refuge at any friends’ houses. If his parents tried to save him or get him help, they were unsuccessful (and their attempts probably went unheard by Simon).

So, like Kieren, Simon was  _alone_  in a world where he felt like shit and had no one to turn to. He finally escaped somehow, and I’m gonna go ahead and assume overdose… maybe accidental, maybe on purpose.

Then Simon comes back to unlife as a monster. He killed his own mother, possibly one of the only people in his entire life that cared about him, and he can’t even fucking remember it. He wakes up strapped to what amounts to a crucifix, being experimented on by scientists that blatantly use him, lie to him, torture him, and then force him out to face what he’s done. He goes home with his father who is clearly uncomfortable with him, enough so that Simon’s father  _freaks out_  in the middle of the night and again forces Simon away from a familiar place.

Simon, who is so much like Kieren in that he is at his core gentle and kind, is left alone and in pain. He has nowhere to go and no one to turn to… except, there is a note in his pocket from Julian. So he swallows down his reservations, and steels himself for another rejection, and he goes to where Julian is, and… and he is received with soft smiles and welcoming words and gentle, heartfelt hugs.

I just- can you even  _imagine_  the amount of relief Simon must have felt in that moment? How much  _fear_  must have come along with it? How long will this last? How long will they accept me? When will they kick me out?

And they don’t. And it’s not just that they don’t kick him out, either. They make Simon someone  _important_. They put Simon in charge of  _accepting other lost souls_  into the fold, giving other people  _just like him_  a place to go, and people who will love them. Can you even- just- ughh… Do you even realize what this must have done for Simon?? Everyone talks about how Simon was accepted and loved but what about all the people he was able to give that to? These people who were hurting, and he could make that go away?? When he could never make it go away for himself once upon a time??

I need you to understand exactly how important it is that Simon was put into this position, given this amazing chance/ability, and how much he must have  _valued_  it. How  _proud_  he must have been, how far having this went to ease his own hurt, even his own guilt. Simon not only had a place, not only had people, but he was given the ability to offer a safe space and love to others. Okay? Okay.

And then the prophet, who made all of this possible, requests Simon travel to Roarton. He tells Simon to find the First Risen, so that they can stop all the suffering for the rest of the undead, the rest of Simon’s people. OF FUCKING COURSE Simon’s packing his bag before the request is even finished, and wow how amazing that Amy’s from Roarton, so he doesn’t even have to go alone to try to figure it all out.

Gosh that’s nice, and what’s even nicer is that Amy’s told him about this beautiful soul she knows in Roarton, someone who took his own life because he was in incredible pain, someone who had to senselessly experience that pain all over again, and there’s no chance that Simon isn’t hoping to be able to heal some of that for Amy’s friend. He’s been such a good person lately, been able to help so many people, it’s given him confidence. He can help Kieren.

**So that’s the Simon that takes a seat on Kieren’s grave to wait for him. That’s the Simon who turns around and looks at Kieren and loses all ability to look at anyone else like that.**

What do I like about Simon and Kieren? The short answer is  _every-fucking-thing_. All of it. But let’s get specific.

I was INCREDIBLY wary of Simon at the outset. I’m super protective of Kieren, and after watching him go through everything he’d gone through in and before Series 1, I was ready to put claws in Simon’s face if he so much as set a toe out of line around Kieren. For a few breathless seconds I was right there with Kieren watching this beautiful guy subtly tell Kieren he doesn’t need the cover up, and recite haunting poetry to him.

Then Amy swooped in and reminded us both that Simon is a part of the ULA, and not just any part, an important part. Flags up everywhere, claws out. But look what happened, okay? Kieren didn’t buy ANY of it. His whole demeanor shifted the second he found out Simon was a disciple. Yes, Simon was a pretty face and yes, Simon was a smooth talker, but Kieren remained functional. He held his ground and made his own judgments and showed me, showed all of us, that he could take care of himself  _even when it came to possible love interests_.

Kieren being 100% unimpressed with Simon is the greatest thing to ever have happened on my television screen. Because it wasn’t that Kieren wasn’t impressed with Simon. Two seconds before he finds out what Simon does, [he IS impressed with Simon](https://38.media.tumblr.com/6fb05096324f4861e41d2c08972f23fc/tumblr_n8msb78pY91qksrd9o1_250.gif). In the heartbeats where Simon is gently teasing Kieren about his epitaph, where Simon is telling him it’s okay to not hide himself, where Simon is reciting poetry that speaks so keenly for BOTH of them… Kieren IS impressed with him. What Kieren is NOT impressed with is the ULA and the fact that Simon is a part of it after Kieren has judged it to be a bad thing.

I LOVE that Kieren can hold his ground like that.

Okay, but it’s not just that Kieren isn’t impressed with that… it’s that Simon  _does not understand_  why Kieren stopped being impressed. In his eyes, the ULA is only this wonderful, amazing, good thing that saved him and so many others. This should have made Kieren more impressed. And he immediately begins to say things that make it clear he thinks Kieren just doesn’t understand why he should be impressed with the ULA.  _And Kieren doesn’t budge_. Not even when Amy joins in. Kieren stands in the middle ground of sanity and firmly makes it clear he’s not going to be dragged to either side.

And the next time we see them, one of my favorite things happens. Simon pushes against Kieren. Simon bring Amy along with him to the Legion, where Kieren works, and even though the only word he says the ENTIRE scene is Kieren’s name, he exchanges a novel of conversation with Kieren.

He walks into the Legion and he takes a seat and he looks at Kieren, and in that look he says that he has seen the line in the sand Kieren has drawn. He says that he has heard Kieren’s beliefs about the town, and that he believes them to be false. Without a word, their beliefs are tossed into the fighting ring, and Kieren’s beliefs tap out a surrender to the beat of Gary’s insults. The way Simon’s brows raise at that, when Gary yells about ROTTERS, asks Kieren NOT if he’s going to take that sort of talk, but ask instead what Kieren is going to do now. So much for your beliefs, kiddo. Now what? Simon, without a single word, tells Kieren that whatever Kieren wants to do (fight or let it pass), Simon will follow his lead. It’s up to Kieren, Simon leaves their path up to Kieren.

kajevnlkseajnglskrtjhrdt

Look, okay, I have issues with a lot of things, but let’s talk about one of them. Let’s talk about the consent of letting someone make their own decisions.

I am that person who will absolutely fight to the death to protect someone I care about… if that is what they want me to do. If they need me to do it. But I am 100% that person who will stand back and let someone handle their own battles, because that is how people become stronger, that is how people learn to defend themselves, how people learn who they really are. I will help you if you need help, but if you got this, I’ma let you have it.

And this moment in the pub? Kieren’s  _got this_  and Simon knows it. Kieren has already been handling Gary for however many years. He was obviously putting up with Gary before Simon and Amy entered. Simon  _does not_  push Kieren into action by getting up to interfere. He silently asks Kieren what he wants to do, and when Kieren chooses to fight, Simon doesn’t burst into action. He lets Kieren pick a fight. He watches Kieren push Gary “ass-over-tits” into a bar table.

Do you know when Simon  _does_  interfere? Just as Gary reaches Kieren. When Simon  _does_  step in, it is because there is about to be useless violence. Simon has made his point. He has proven to Kieren that things are NOT quiet and resolved in Roarton. He has proven to Kieren that Kieren  _cannot_  do as he pleases here, that there are still problems that need correcting. He has pressed against Kieren’s line in the sand until Kieren revealed where his actual limit was, and then Simon stepped back and said okay. He stopped Gary a second away from actually hurting Kieren, and then, again, looked to Kieren for what to do.

Because yes, Simon stepped in to stop Gary, but I absolutely believe that if Kieren had indicated Simon should let Gary go, Simon would have. If Kieren had indicated that Simon overstepped a boundary by interfering, Simon would have taken that step back and let Kieren carry on. But Kieren, instead of giving Simon any indication of what to do, says wordlessly that he’s  _not playing your fucking game, Simon_ , and leaves.

I loved that whole interaction. I loved that Simon came in to test Kieren, and I loved that when Kieren was really pushed, he just walked away. He told Simon before that he wasn’t leaving middle ground for more extreme action, and he doesn’t.

Of course, I was still pretty angry and wary of Simon at this point, because he was pushing Kieren and he was from the ULA. But then the fence.

Then Simon shows up to the fence raising, and he, again, tells Kieren that he doesn’t have to hide. He bares his own wrist and tells Kieren they all have scars - they have all been hurt in the past, they have all done terrible things to cope with the hurt. For just a moment, Simon finds himself bare in front of Kieren, talking in such a raw way about the way his life had been. This is Simon seeing the proof that Kieren was desperately  _alone_  in his first life, and this is Simon desperate to ensure Kieren knows he isn’t alone (or doesn’t have to be alone) this time. No one should feel like Simon felt, in his eyes, least of all this strong, beautiful boy. He tries to make that connection, and for just a moment you see Kieren soften because he recognizes this is real!Simon, not ULA!Simon.

When Kieren asks him “do you still feel that way?” I don’t think he’s asking out of curiosity. He’s asking if Simon is okay, or if he needs help. Here’s Simon, who consciously made a decision to try to help Kieren, but who unconsciously ends up exposing a part of himself that needs help, and Kieren immediately catches on to that and touches in the gentlest way upon it to see if there is anything he can do for Real!Simon.

Are you kidding me?? How anyone does not fall head over heels at this point is beyond me. I want to know everything that ran through Simon’s head when he realized Kieren cared about him because he was hurting, not because he was Important with a capital I. Not because Kieren needs him for anything, not because Kieren has any use for him. Kieren cares to ask that question because Kieren is good and kind and gentle and sees that Simon had been in pain.

And Simon makes a move to Kieren that night, puts his hand on Kieren’s and tells him that he’s there for him, too. I’ll admit, my hackles went up when Simon put his hand on Kieren’s because it WAS so similar to how he deals with the ULA members. But at the same time, I was so relieved to see someone say the thing Kieren needed to hear:  _you aren’t alone anymore_.

But what’s important to note here is that… where Simon was willing to push Kieren in matters of his beliefs about the ULA, the undead, the town, and whatever, Simon  _does not_  push Kieren when it comes to “them.” He  _does not_ push when it comes to consent between them. He puts forward that he is there, including a gentle and not-unwelcome touch (the entire interaction, as a matter of fact, has Kieren bouncing and happy later when he arrives home to find Jem on the doorstep), but he does not press the issue.

*rolls over belly up* Just kill me. It would be less intense than these feelings over everything that happens next.

Having had one success at pressing Kieren’s boundaries over real-world stuff, Simon finds himself put in the GP Surgery with Kieren. I have some feels about what he does when he meets the doctor, but those aside, the hospital scene is Simon’s second attempt to press Kieren until he breaks- and this time, Kieren doesn’t. When Simon puts him in a bad position (having stolen the keys and clearly having the intention to do something Kieren is firmly against and using Kieren to accomplish it), Kieren doesn’t ignore it. Kieren flat-out communicates that he clearly told Simon not to involve him, and that Simon involved him anyway, and that this  _is not okay_.

Kieren absolutely, with no wiggle room, tells Simon that it is NOT OKAY to disrespect his wishes, NOT OKAY to use him like this. And Simon? Simon could probably have pressed it. There could have been an altercation. But Simon returns the keys. This time, when Simon presses against Kieren’s boundaries and Kieren refuses to yield, Simon yields instead.

THIS IS SO IMPORTANT. EVERY TIME KIEREN SAYS NO AND SIMON LISTENS IS IMPORTANT TO ME. VERY IMPORTANT TO ME.

/lkznsd;kvbjsentb;kjnsrelbgkjsrflkhfdvbjhdlfkvbslkjnbse

geezus and then Simon leaves and he’s PISSED at Kieren (wrongly, might I add, but not unduly… he is not violent like Rick was, he does not take it out on Kieren. He is angry, and so he leaves).

Kieren goes through a really shitty evening that same day. He gets a call about Freddie Preston going rabid, and Gary’s going to kill him and Kieren just can’t let that happen, can’t let that precedent get set or it will pave the way for future violence, and once again, Kieren finds himself between the barrel of a gun and a scared rabid undead, and the last time that happened it was Rick Macy holding the gun and Gary basically tells him in no uncertain terms that he can do whatever he wants and there’s shit-all Kieren can do about it and that’s SCARY SHIT OKAY. And I am right there with Kieren as he loses his cool, as he lets himself get a little scared, get distressed over how much danger he is in.

And Kieren doesn’t go home. He doesn’t go to his parents, not his little sister, not even Amy. Kieren goes to  _Simon_. Kieren goes to Simon, even though Simon was pissed at him last time they saw each other. And Simon, even though he was pissed at Kieren the last time they saw each other, is  _immediately_ concerned about Kieren, asking what happened, what’s wrong. Wanting to help, because Simon always does want to help.

And Kieren doesn’t have words, what sort of fucking words are there to describe how fucked up life is? There aren’t any, they both know that. The whole entire world is fucked up and maybe they are the only two that understand how fucked up it is for the other one, and Kieren just puts all of that into a kiss. It is desperate, it is an explanation and an apology, it is begging for comfort and finding relief that there is one other person in the world who put his hand over Kieren’s and said he would be there and it was the truth.

Simon, meanwhile, has been looking for a connection with Kieren. He has been looking for a way to help Kieren, and here it is, and even though he was SO mad at Kieren for what he did, Simon doesn’t hold that grudge when Kieren needs him. It’s fantastic.

**And then my favorite things in the whole world happen. Haaa you thought I was in love with them before now? NOPE.**

So we have Kieren going straight over to the bungalow after Give Back (cutie fixing his hair after he buzzes the door, which tells me he doesn’t think the night before was a mistake, that he DOES want Simon to like him, that he DOES like Simon as well, that even though he was upset and all, he still made rational decisions regarding Simon), and immediately reminds Simon that he’s not interested in the ULA bullshit.

*rubs face in this moment* The second Simon starts pushing the ULA stuff, telling Kieren “welcome [to church]” and putting his hand on Kieren’s neck to tell him he’s been brainwashed [by the living] etc, Kieren puts his foot down and won’t move. He’s not interested in the ULA, he’s interested in SIMON.

And Simon’s reaction to this is just a fucking tragedy, okay? If I could wrap him up in a bundle of blankets and protect him from the world at this point, I would. Because Simon doesn’t know how to handle someone who wants him to just… be him. Simon’s spent so long trying to escape himself, trying to be what everyone else asks him to be, that I don’t think Simon even really…. knows who he is anymore. And Kieren finds that soft spot and just puts all his weight into pressing against it and it leaves Simon at a loss.

And that’s the point when Simon just… gives. He breaks. He wants to be close to Kieren, wants Kieren to like him, wants to be able to be there for Kieren, and he keeps taking the wrong steps because he doesn’t understand what Kieren wants, and he can see that if he keeps making those wrong steps, he’s gonna lose any chance he had with Kieren, and so he just… snaps.

**“Tell me what you want… I’ll do anything I can to give it to you.”**

Oh my gosh this is the most unhealthy line ever spoken, because on the surface it seems sweet, it seems like Simon bending to try to give Kieren happiness, but what we see shortly after this is that Simon doesn’t necessarily possess the ability to judge (or at least the capacity to say no) if what Kieren wants (or says he wants) will damage Simon’s happiness. Simon says “anything” and he means it, even if “anything” doesn’t make Simon happy.

And what Kieren does ask him is to compromise his beliefs. This is directly related to the way Simon separates Kieren from the ULA business not seconds after declaring he will do anything.

**“There’s what I believe… and then there’s you.”**

This is Simon doing the one thing he does know Kieren wants. He has seen that Kieren wants NOTHING to do with the ULA, and he needs Kieren to know that he can separate the two. He needs Kieren to know that he doesn’t need Kieren to be a part of the ULA, even if the ULA is a huuuuuge part of Simon’s life, even if the ULA has been the greatest source of support and love in Simon’s life post-Rising. He can keep them separate, or so he thinks. He desperately wants to be able to keep them separate, if that is what Kieren wants.

And Kieren basically pulls a “prove it” move, which both irritates and pleases me. It irritates me because it’s a really shitty move, one that he shouldn’t be making, but it pleases me because… he fucks up. Kieren fucks up so badly, and it’s a simple, human fuck-up. I love Kieren to death, don’t get me wrong, he is my favorite character in the show and possibly my favorite character ever, but he is those things BECAUSE he does flawed things like this.

Because what Kieren is asking Simon to do is compromise his beliefs. Simon is against hiding what he is, and Kieren requests that he do exactly that. Sit down and have a think sometime about when Simon first had to wear contacts and mousse. Think about how they signified betrayal by John after John promised he wouldn’t have to see his family til he was “better.” Think about how the first time he wore them was to see his father, and he learned he killed his mother. Think about the first time he wore them home, to his awkwardly made-up room, to his still-grieving father, only to be kicked out to the street. Think about all the shitty, horrible things that happened to Simon when he was still wearing contacts and mousse.

And then try to look at Kieren the same for asking Simon do those things in a “prove it” gesture. Yes, Kieren couldn’t have known all those things, but that just really goes to show how little he thought he gave to Simon’s comfort or well-being.

And then think about how worried Simon was when he came out of the bathroom. Simon is doing this because he wants to be in Kieren’s good graces, but what if he comes out of the bathroom and Kieren likes this face better? What if he wants Simon to stay this way?

“How do I look?” Simon asks, swallowing down his anxiety over Kieren’s reaction.

And Kieren, bless him, says “So bad” to reassure Simon that he doesn’t prefer this, that he likes Simon both ways, that it’s okay, just relax. For Kieren, the point isn’t the make up, it’s the visiting his family.

And oh… oh my gosh. The lunch. The awkward way Simon tries to “be himself” “be normal” “be a normal person.” And how amazingly he really doesn’t do well at it. What got me best at the outset of the lunch was when he’s confronted with Steve saying he hopes Simon likes lunch and the way Simon freezes up. Like maybe he thinks Steve doesn’t know he can’t eat, like Steve maybe doesn’t know he’s undead because he’s wearing his contacts and coverup, like maybe he will have to pretend even MORE by actually eating food (and being sick). How far would he have been willing to take this for Kieren, if Kieren hadn’t immediately then made it clear that they were both undead and not going to eat?

And then just… ugh. Simon, I love you. The way he wants to make a good impression on Kieren’s family so he agrees to be civil with Gary, and fucking Gary (FUCK YOU GARY) can’t even keep his fucking mouth shut for 15 minutes and says the most god-awful hurtful and shitty things and Simon’s so determined to be good he even tries to tell Kieren to “leave it” when Kieren starts in on Gary.

*whispers* the way Simon looks at Kieren when he finds out he’s the First.

It’s like watching someone discover all the secrets of the universe. Simon knew that Kieren was special, he felt it right to his core maybe even from day 1, but he could never have guessed HOW special. Because look back at where Simon came from; he was put into a position to help some people to not feel like he felt, once upon a time. But Kieren? Kieren stands to be the one to save ALL of the people from feeling like that. Kieren is The First, and he is supposed to bring peace and equality and all the good things to those people who have been without it.

And this amazing, good person likes Simon. Asked Simon to come meet his family, kissed him in the middle of the night, wants to try to start something with him. Simon’s world just tipped sideways, and Kieren is literally changing in this HUGE developmental way right there at the table and it all makes me really really emotional.

Especially considering what happens next, because what happens next is they somehow end up at the bungalow hours later, and Kieren does the thing. He takes out his contacts, shedding his skin to become this more confident, self-actualized person. He begins to wipe the mousse from his face when he catches sight of Simon and it’s his turn to have his world tip on its side.

Because as badly as Kieren fucked up to ask Simon to put the makeup on, this is the point where Kieren realizes he fucked up and corrects himself. He gets up and he crosses to Simon and he wipes away the coverup he made Simon wear. It is the single most intimate, heart-felt apology I have ever seen.

I’m sorry I made you do this. I’m sorry I didn’t realize what I was asking you to do. I’m sorry I made you hide, and I’m sorry I kept myself hidden. I’m sorry I told you that you were wrong, because you weren’t. You deserved better from me, and I’m sorry.

At some point, Kieren has to go home and face his family (or maybe his family is asleep, let’s hope), and Simon FINALLY gets a chance to go call someone (Julian? The prophet? not really sure) to tell them that he found the First Risen. He was sent here on a mission to find the First, and he has (the prophet is gonna be so proud of him, look how he did the right thing!), and not just that but this kid’s the most beautiful person in the world, inside and out, and Simon can barely contain his awe and happiness in that moment.

I want to back track before I head into the last portion of this fucking novel (I told you it was gonna get long), to talk about the second half of Simon and Kieren’s interaction in the bungalow kitchen, because it’s possibly the MOST important thing to me.

There is a moment when Amy walks out of the room, and Simon prowls across the room to Kieren and turns him around and moves in for a kiss and… and Kieren says no, basically, and immediately Simon stops. No why, no ignoring Kieren, no complaints. He just fucking stops, and in that moment I was lost forever. Consent. Simon respects it because when he asked John and Victor to stop, they didn’t and Simon will never put someone in that position.

*lays on the floor*

And Kieren… oh my sweet bb Kieren… How much he doesn’t want to hurt Amy, how he is willing to say no to Simon until he’s had a chance to talk to her about it, the way he looks up at Simon with a little pause after “if this is something we’re doing[?]” ahhhhh.

I just… consent is a really big thing for me, and seeing these two characters interact like this, softly, honestly, and in a healthy way, is THE BEST THING for me. I’m more than happy to wallow in this moment forever, because there are so many ways this scene could have gone, and it went perfectly, and not just that, the sentiment carries over into their other interactions. From then on, Simon doesn’t initiate their contact, he lets Kieren decide what is comfortable. Kieren, the very next time he sees Amy (and unfortunately the last) does bring it up with her (or rather, answers when she beats him to it).

Anyway. Back to present conversation, where Simon skips town to go find out that he has to kill Kieren. Simon is SO EXCITED to have done the right thing and found the most amazing person in the world, and then he receives an order that is SO dissonant that it literally sends him into an anxiety attack full of flashbacks to what is arguably the worst point in his life, like he is trying to remind himself of all the terrible things the ULA saved him from so that he can steel himself to do what he needs to do to Kieren.

The thing is that… for all of that, for all that Simon does return to Roarton, for all that he picked up the knife and followed Kieren out to the graveyard, for all that he 100% intends to do what was asked of him by the person who gave him so much, Simon isn’t lying to Steve when he says that saving Kieren’s life was reflex.

The moment came to choose between the ULA and Kieren, and every instinct in Simon’s whole entire body screamed “KIEREN” loudly enough that Simon stepped in front of a bullet to save him.

The way Simon cannot stop touching Kieren after saving him, the way he physically needs that reassurance that Kieren is okay, that he’s still moving, still there, that he was able to stop the world from losing Kieren a second time… the way he casts down everything else in his life when he releases that knife and spits out that the Second Rising isn’t happening… he spent so much time debating what to do, convincing himself of what needed to be done, and then it comes down to Kieren alive or dead, and anything which would put Kieren in the “dead” category Simon doesn’t even have to think twice about discarding anymore. Simon knows where he stands for once in his life, and for once in his life, it’s his CHOICE that puts him there.

He CHOSE Kieren.

And the AWE with which he treats Kieren afterward in the surgery suite. The gentle way Kieren reminds him, yet again, that they are separate from Simon’s beliefs, and Simon just gives a little rueful smile because Kieren literally has NO IDEA how separate they just became from Simon’s previous beliefs, and he has NO IDEA how embroiled they just became in the ULA business.

But okay… Kieren asking Simon “Where did you go?” because Simon just disappeared with no warning… sound familiar? Rick did the same thing, except Rick didn’t come back when he disappeared. Rick went off where Kieren couldn’t reach him, and he died, and everything went to shit, and it was the worst thing Kieren had ever experienced. And then Simon disappeared, and thing started going to shit again, and just… but then Simon came back, and he stopped the bad things this time.

And finally, we get to the end. We get to Simon being the one who is ready to run because he thinks there’s no way these people will want him around. No one else has. No one else wanted him there when he was alive, no one wanted him after he came back to life. And he didn’t even consciously DO anything to them- he HELPED John and Victor and he doesn’t remember killing his mom so the way his father treats him must have been dissonant to him. Even the ULA has rejected him because he didn’t want to be who they said he should be, rather than who he wanted to be.

Kieren, on the other hand, has asked for him to be himself all along, and now that he is, Kieren doesn’t reject him. Simon suggests that they need to leave, because they are in danger, because he knows they are about to be in so much danger, but when Kieren says he is staying, there’s no other consideration for Simon. If Kieren stays, he stays.

And one of the MOST important things about Kieren and Simon together is that they have been through all of this and they still have SO MUCH to sort out (not the least of which is Simon telling Kieren what he was doing out there in the graveyard in the first place), and along this amazing journey I became so invested in these two working themselves out that I just… want to see more. I want to see every interaction, every problem and every solution. I want to see it all.

I love them. I love them so much for everything they are above and everything they can yet be if given the chance.

 

* * *

 

 

"What are the flaws in Simon and Kieren's relationship?"

PART 1: Anonymous asked: what do you think are the biggest flaws in the kieran/simon relationship if any

“If any” haaaaa ohmygod where do I even start on the flaws?? How do you define  _biggest_? Let’s go with  _favorite_  instead~

My  _favorite_  Simon “flaw” (really it’s the things about the relationship which are, in my view, unhealthy) for their relationship spawns from when Simon says “Tell me what you want… I’ll do anything I can to give it to you.” This, on a surface level, seems really sweet aww ohmygosh he loves Kieren so much he’s trying to make him happyyyy- NO.

No, that’s not what this is about. It might have been about that, if the scene were not followed by an example of what it IS about, and that is that Simon was 100% dead serious (lolll i hate myself) when he said he would do anything-  _including sacrificing his own happiness_. And that’s not hypothetical, it’s not theoretical… Literally in the next scene Kieren asks Simon to apply cover-up and put in contacts, something which is against Simon’s beliefs, something which clearly makes him very uncomfortable, something he  _does not want to do_ , and Simon does it because that’s what Kieren wants. That’s so unhealthy and we need to be shown that Simon is as functional as Kieren is when it comes to making decisions about and for Kieren.

Now, granted, we see Kieren apologize for his choice by cleaning off Simon’s face first later that night, which is fantastic, but just because Kieren realized he did something wrong doesn’t mean he realizes how to change, and it doesn’t mean Simon’s mindset has changed. Kieren may have realized it was wrong to ask Simon to wear cover-up because it is wrong to hide who they are, because it made Simon uncomfortable, because Simon was right to not want to hide himself… but Kieren may not realize it was wrong to ask Simon to compromise his own happiness, and he may not realize the extent to which he holds power over Simon in this respect.

Another major flaw in their relationship, on Kieren’s side, is the way Kieren treats Simon’s (for lack of a better word) religion. We, as viewers, are aware that the ULA is a cult, and that there are bad things happening, that it has bad intentions. Kieren has gauged some of this himself (the ULA is giving out blue oblivion, which has gotten people hurt and/or killed, for starters), but we have to remember he doesn’t know the full extent.

I view the ULA kind of like how I view PETA. It’s an extremist group and they do some really shitty things, but the people who don’t know all the shitty things that they do may follow them for good-intention reasons. PETA, for all the wrong ways it goes about things and bad things it does, is supposed to stand for animal rights in the same way that the ULA, for all the wrong ways it goes about things and bad things it does, is supposed to stand for PDS sufferer rights.

The people who believe in the ULA, like Simon, believe in the message of fighting for PDS sufferer rights. They want to work for better conditions for PDS sufferers. They want freedom for PDS sufferers, want them all to be treated as equals. That’s not wrong, that message is not wrong. What’s wrong is blindly supporting the organization in charge of the fight, without asking if they are doing questionable things, without investigating for yourself what methods are being used.

Kieren, however, outright rejects all of it (which is fine, that is his prerogative) in a pretty rude way (which is not so cool). As much as I love Kieren’s ability to not put up with “cult bullshit,” the way he scoffs at, dismisses, and looks down upon Simon’s beliefs (which, may I remind you, are not ill-intentioned, Simon’s beliefs are that the PDS deserve to be treated better than they are, that they do not deserve to be persecuted or hurt for being what they are) doesn’t really sit well with me.

I want  _respect_  in this relationship. On the one hand we have Simon who is currently blinded to Kieren’s flaws and thus incapable of actual respect (which stems from more than just liking someone, liking someone and respecting them are two different things) and on the other hand you have Kieren who only respects Simon when Simon is doing what Kieren wants. Even at the wake, when Kieren stays quiet to let Simon decide whether to stay or go, we have no proof Kieren would have been accepting and respectful of Simon’s decision if he’d chosen to leave instead.

Outside of those two major flaws, there are  _problems_  the two of them are going to have.

For one, Simon has yet to tell Kieren about what he was doing in the graveyard (which I 100% think he will do, there just hasn’t been an appropriate chance yet). That’s going to be a HUGE issue, and I really need Kieren to ask Simon “what if you’d thought it was Amy?” because that answer is going to be SUPER IMPORTANT. Like, the wrong answer to that question could end them.

We also have the fact that Simon has an addictive personality; he seeks out something and loses himself to it. In his first life, it was drugs. In this second life, it was the ULA. When he severed those ties, he was set adrift and I have concerns that the next addiction he will suffer is Kieren. As excellent and awesome as it was that he was willing to give up the ULA and take that bullet for Kieren, I need to see that he hasn’t given himself up to Kieren instead now, that Simon can be Simon apart from Kieren.

I talked a little about this before, but Simon is in an uncomfortable situation in regards to his entire fucking life right now. He has chosen to stay in Roarton (to be with/protect Kieren), but he doesn’t actually have anywhere else to go. He can’t go to his family. He can’t go to the ULA or their communes. He doesn’t have a place of his own (it’s possible Amy left the bungalow to him, of course, but that doesn’t give him anywhere “else” to go still). He’s severed his only friendly ties in order to save Kieren’s life… which is something Kieren  _does not know_  yet. I think it will be important to see Kieren retain his ability to make sound decisions in light of that information.

I personally think all of the above are surmountable problems/flaws, and I think that they would get addressed in future seasons if we’re granted that much more, and I would THOROUGHLY enjoy watching them work through all this.

I’m sure I missed things, but it’s been a very long day, so hopefully this is a good starting point for you :)

PART 2: 

[itwastheband](http://itwastheband.tumblr.com/) asked: _I just recently finished ITF, and one thing I've noticed a lot of is that people keep saying Simon and Kieren have an unhealthy relationship and, while I agree they have problems, I feel the need to point out that they're still really early into their relationship. So, I feel like a lot of their issues are just because they haven't been around each other long enough and they haven’t worked everything out yet. For instance, Simon putting Kieren on a pedestal – [1/8_ ]  _we’ve already seen him rebuff Simon when he was acting like Kieren was heaven sent after the Blue Oblivion incident and they hadn’t known each other that long at that point. So I can’t see Kieren being okay with Simon worshiping him, and I don’t doubt he’d be vocal about it every time it happens. Simon, on the other hand, I can see him having more of a problem only because he acts like a schoolboy with a crush. [2/8]_ _And, like anyone with a crush, it takes a little while to see past the glam and glitter. Which, I think Simon saw past for a brief moment in 2.03 when he was disappointed when Kieren refused to help. Unfortunately, that one time is nowhere near enough to show that Kieren’s just a normal, yet very good person, so it’ll definitely take some more time for Simon to get past treating Kieren like he’s made of gold. [3/8]_ _(Though, if you ask me, I think Kieren could use being called beautiful and incredible more often – I think it’d do wonders for his self-esteem) As for Kieren respecting Simon’s religion/Simon himself – I get the feeling this is going to be another “OH!” moment similar to the one right after the lunch in 2.04, where he doesn’t realize what he’s done/been doing until AFTER everything is over. [4/8]_ _That or it’ll be similar to the moment in 2.06 for Sue when Shirley unintentionally whacked her over the head with a figurative clue-by-four to hit the point home. Or, maybe he might even need his mom/dad/Amy to step in and explain things to him before he really gets it. Who knows, maybe Simon will even say something one day even in a fit of hurt/frustration. My point is, I don’t consider them unhealthy. Yes, they have some pretty big issues to work through besides the aforementioned – [5/8]_ _with Simon needing to learn who he is/be less codependent and Kieren needing to realize how much power he has/how to not abuse it – but ultimately they just make me think of any other couple that are learning to live with each other and not step on any landmines in the process. What would be unhealthy is if Simon kept winding him up or if Kieren kept forcing Simon to wear cover up despite knowing it’s hurting the other person, which I can’t see after them learning what they did in 2.04 [6/8]_ _I’m sorry for the essay. I just cringe at that description for them because when I think of unhealthy relationships, I think of canon pairings from other shows that are rife with INTENTIONAL cheating, lying, and constant arguments over every little thing. This is nowhere close to that, even if they have the potential to go there, and that’s why this show is such a breath of fresh air. [7/8]_ _(I also cringe when people say Kieren doesn’t care for Simon as much in return. Simon is confident in who he is, Kieren’s not. What speaks volumes to me is that Kieren didn’t give Simon up when he found the Blue Oblivion. He also didn’t sign the confession and damn Simon, even when Kieren had no idea if Simon was guilty. That combined with Kieren trying to warn him, being hurt when he couldn’t find him and the sketch of him in his room – we have requited feelings. He’s just quieter about it.)_

Welcome! Thank you for writing back about my Siren flaws meta (by the way, you can use the “[submit](http://kedreeva.tumblr.com/submit)“ if you have long messages, it’d save you time breaking up the message into asks) and thank you for being polite! There’s a lot to go through here, so I’ll try to take it bit by bit.

 

_one thing I’ve noticed a lot of is that people keep saying Simon and Kieren have an unhealthy relationship and, while I agree they have problems, I feel the need to point out that they’re still really early into their relationship. So, I feel like a lot of their issues are just because they haven’t been around each other long enough and they haven’t worked everything out yet._

I want to say that just because I see flaws or unhealthy elements in a pairing, doesn’t by any stretch of the imagination mean I think that the entire relationship is unhealthy. I do not think Siren, as a whole, is unhealthy- I think it’s FANTASTIC. But, I do believe that it has unhealthy elements, which is what I originally was writing about.

Like we’ve both said, they have problems, and I agree that a lot of them they will be working through- but that doesn’t excuse them or make them go away  _currently_ , so until we  _see_  them work through those things, we can only assume about future healthy resolutions. It’s likely, of course it’s extremely likely based on how they’ve handled themselves so far, and that’s part of why I’m so excited about them.

_For instance, Simon putting Kieren on a pedestal –_   _we’ve already seen him rebuff Simon when he was acting like Kieren was heaven sent after the Blue Oblivion incident and they hadn’t known each other that long at that point. So I can’t see Kieren being okay with Simon worshiping him, and I don’t doubt he’d be vocal about it every time it happens._

The problem with Simon putting Kieren on a pedestal is that this isn’t Kieren’s problem. This is Simon’s problem, and Kieren rebuffing him isn’t the solution (it’s not a problem, either, and I won’t say it doesn’t help at all, but it’s not the end solution).

Look at it like this. Say you see something which you find to be beautiful and you tell the person who made it that you think it is beautiful and they tell you it is not beautiful, it’s just ordinary. That doesn’t change your opinion of it being beautiful. You still think it is. You may not tell them again (or you may tell them more, idk), but your opinion, your mindset, doesn’t change.

Kieren telling Simon “I’m just a normal person” doesn’t mean Simon does or will believe that. Kieren telling Simon to stop thinking that may not change that Simon thinks Kieren is incredible, it may just make him stop trying to tell Kieren that, and we’ve been given no evidence that Simon will stop this behavior which leads me to….

_I think Simon saw past_ [the glam and glitter of his crush on Kieren] _for a brief moment in 2.03 when he was disappointed when Kieren refused to help. Unfortunately, that one time is nowhere near enough to show that Kieren’s just a normal, yet very good person, so it’ll definitely take some more time for Simon to get past treating Kieren like he’s made of gold._

On the one hand, I agree that Simon “saw past” his crush for a moment when Kieren called him out, but his reaction to this was in no way good. He threw the adult equivalent of a hissy fit because he didn’t get what he wanted/expected. The only healthy thing about his reaction to Kieren  _telling Simon no_ , was that he walked away with his anger rather than take it out on Kieren. He needed time to cool off, and so he took it, and for that I’m supremely pleased with Simon (and even more so that he DID take Kieren’s no, even if he was unhappy about it).

And the scene in the GP surgery showed some even more problematic behavior for them because although I was extremely happy to see Kieren put his foot down and refuse to budge on the issue of following actions he didn’t believe were “the right thing to do,” the fact that Simon was willing to try to force Kieren into doing them anyway speaks volumes about Simon’s mindset at this point.

Now, granted, Kieren doesn’t let him get away with it, and I think this moment helped them GREATLY to begin to understand one another (like you’ve said, they’re only just starting out and getting a feel for one another etc). Simon is (was) someone who was very used to people going along with him. He’s an Important Person, one of the Chosen, a disciple to a Very Important Person. Kieren not acknowledging that as true or even relevant means that if Simon wants to continue to interact with Kieren, he will to change how he acts and interacts with Kieren (which is, in my opinion, a good thing).

In this respect, your earlier point about Kieren rebuffing Simon for putting him on a pedestal is accurate; it is important that Kieren continue to do that, as it is  _part_  of the way Simon will grow out of his crush and see Kieren as a normal person.

_As for Kieren respecting Simon’s religion/Simon himself – I get the feeling this is going to be another “OH!” moment similar to the one right after the lunch in 2.04, where he doesn’t realize what he’s done/been doing until AFTER everything is over._

The thing about this is that what you’re seeing is a potential solution, whereas what we have in canon so far is still a problem. And it’s fine, to be hopeful that they will resolve this (and I agree, I think that they will solve it somehow in the future), but for right now, it’s a problem, it’s one of the unhealthy elements of their current relationship.

Additionally (and I’m not saying that this is the case here, because I don’t think it is currently), I want to point out that there are other situations where one person does bad things to another person, and then apologizes afterward. And that’s fine, if that’s the only time it happens and the person learns from their mistake and doesn’t hurt the person that way again. But we have a name for that cycle of it becomes a pattern.

I’m not, in any way, shape, or form, saying that Kieren currently is abusive (emotionally) toward Simon, but if this develops into a pattern of “another similar moment where he doesn’t realize what he’s done/been doing until after everything is over,” then it holds potential to unintentionally become that. So far, however, Kieren has repeatedly disrespected Simon’s beliefs, which is not a good sign. The hope here is that Kieren hasn’t figured out it’s a problem yet and that, once Kieren does realize what he’s been doing, he corrects himself and does not repeat the mistake.

So, for the moment, I think it stands true that Kieren treating Simon with disrespect/disregard is a problem.

_Who knows, maybe Simon will even say something one day even in a fit of hurt/frustration._

I hold out high hopes that Simon will say something BEFORE he reaches the “fit of hurt/frustration stage” because that stage isn’t a good one. That stage means Simon has already tolerated an amount of hurt without feeling like he can speak to Kieren like an adult, like an equal, and that he is only able to bring up his feelings when he is lashing out. That’s not healthy, either.

_I don’t consider them unhealthy. Yes, they have some pretty big issues to work through besides the aforementioned –_ _with Simon needing to learn who he is/be less codependent and Kieren needing to realize how much power he has/how to not abuse it – but ultimately they just make me think of any other couple that are learning to live with each other and not step on any landmines in the process._

Like I said at the start, I don’t think their relationship itself is unhealthy, I think there are unhealthy elements to it, and I agree completely that I think they will work through those things as they learn and grow together. Part of the fun, part of why we get SO ATTACHED to characters and ships is because we see the problems, the odds stacked against them working it out, and we are excited to see them work past those things together. I fully believe that’s where Siren is heading.

_What would be unhealthy is if Simon kept winding him up or if Kieren kept forcing Simon to wear cover up despite knowing it’s hurting the other person, which I can’t see after them learning what they did in 2.04_

Unfortunately, we haven’t seen them interact much past 2.04. Their whole relationship happens in a very short amount of time, and so much other shit’s gone down in that time that they’ve been given very little chance to work themselves out. So, for the moment, we don’t know if Simon will keep winding Kieren up, and we don’t know if Kieren will ask Simon to do more things Simon disagrees with (and we don’t know how far Simon will be willing to bend to make Kieren happy, still, especially if he is being fueled by guilt over trying to kill Kieren).

I agree that I can’t see them stagnating after what they’ve been through, I think that they WILL adapt and learn and be better, but that’s speculation only so far. We really do need a season 3, yes?

_I’m sorry for the essay._

Don’t be! Oh my goodness, never be sorry for wanting/having discussion! This was an amazing set of messages to receive, and I’m really happy for a chance to discuss this with someone who can disagree and discuss sensitive topics respectfully!

_I just cringe at that description for them because when I think of unhealthy relationships, I think of canon pairings from other shows that are rife with INTENTIONAL cheating, lying, and constant arguments over every little thing. This is nowhere close to that, even if they have the potential to go there_

100% there with you. Siren definitely does not have the normal, shitty cheating/lying problems that a lot of tv romances have, and for that I’m infinitely thankful. I’m also thankful that they both appear to want to work through their problems, rather than one or both of them being constantly angry that there IS a problem. Even when Kieren is telling Simon to cut it out about calling him incredible, he’s not mean or angry- he’s a little hurt, a little exasperated, and it’s very clear he cares still. I like that.

But it’s really no secret how much I love Siren (its good AND bad, I love all parts of it).

_I also cringe when people say Kieren doesn’t care for Simon as much in return._

This stems, I think, mostly from the fact that Dom (the creator of the show) said outright in an interview—

> "With Kieren and Simon’s relationship, it’s just beginning really, they’re not in love with each other I don’t think. I think Simon is much more into Kieren than Kieren is into Simon. I think he’s intrigued and I think he fancies Simon, but it’s not like that all-encompassing Romeo and Juliet thing" ([x](https://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.denofgeek.com%2Ftv%2Fin-the-flesh%2F30824%2Fdominic-mitchell-interview-whats-next-for-in-the-flesh&t=MDUyN2IyOTlmMTI2NWMwZjkxYWRiZGZhOWNmN2IyZTAyNDM5YjIwMyxjVWlkZGFmMw%3D%3D&b=t%3ApDrE-1Xyq8b_UVljyHdNpQ&p=http%3A%2F%2Fkedreeva.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F95551175368%2Fi-just-recently-finished-itf-and-one-thing-ive&m=0))

So, word-of-god stuff like that pretty much colors everyone’s view of the relationship, or like it did for me, confirmed what I already believed.

Anyway, this was great! I’m very glad to be able to have this discussion, and see other points of view written out. Thank you for taking the time to come talk with me! <3

 

* * *

 

 "Is Simon in love with Kieren (and vice versa) at the end of S2?

Anonymous asked: Since you write such fantastic posts, I was wondering your opinion. Do you think Simon and Kieren are in love (or nearly) by the end of series [2]? I'm never quite sure, since a lot of intense stuff goes down in such a short space of time, and everything seems a bit of a whirlwind. Simon seems more infatuated than in love at the moment, and Kieren is still grieving Rick, all the other issues that've been going on. They seem to be on the edge of something that could potentially grow into love?

As a writer, I tend to take a writer’s word about what happens in a story as word-of-god truth (excepting situations where I think what the writer says and what I see on screen is SO dissonant that the actors may have been making some choices about their characters that disagree). As such, Dom Mitchell said in an interview:

> "With Kieren and Simon’s relationship, it’s just beginning really, they’re not in love with each other I don’t think. I think Simon is much more into Kieren than Kieren is into Simon. I think he’s intrigued and I think he fancies Simon" ([x](https://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.denofgeek.com%2Ftv%2Fin-the-flesh%2F30824%2Fdominic-mitchell-interview-whats-next-for-in-the-flesh&t=MjAyZjdjMDA0M2Q5Yjk5NGY0OWVhYTVhOTRlODBkNWVkOGE3ZmRmOSxERkpXT3ZHNg%3D%3D&b=t%3ApDrE-1Xyq8b_UVljyHdNpQ&p=http%3A%2F%2Fkedreeva.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F95672728788%2Fsince-you-write-such-fantastic-posts-i-was&m=0))

So of course I’m going to take that into consideration when I am thinking about Kieren and Simon.

That being said, what I see on screen is Simon being  _smitten_  with Kieren. Fascinated. Absorbed by. In awe of. Confused by. Interested in. Possibly even in love with the  _idea_  of Kieren. What I do not see is Simon being  _in love with_ Kieren. This is for two main reasons.

The first reason is that Simon flat-out does not know Kieren. He knows what Amy has told him about Kieren (and we’ve seen Amy have slightly different beliefs about what is going on in the world as opposed to what is really going on in the world). He knows what he has seen of Kieren in their handful of encounters — the graveyard, the Legion, the Give Back fence work, the GP Surgery, their first kiss, the bungalow/lunch day (more on this in a moment), and the day Simon both goes to kill Kieren and ends up saving Kieren’s life.

I think my original mapping of this time period ended up being, like, less than 3 weeks (I have it stuck in my head that we see the date being Dec. 6th early in S2 and then Dec 12th is the fete, but don’t quote me, I’m still doing the timeline project). That’s not a lot of time to get to know someone and definitely not enough time to take off the rose-tinted glasses.

Which leads to my second reason, and that is that Simon’s vision of Kieren gets severely colored in a different light when he thinks he learns Kieren is the First. He already had Kieren on a bit of a pedestal, enraptured by how different he was, how beautiful he was (inside as well as out), but this? Finding out that Kieren is  _the_  savior of his people?

I just… you have to understand that this is really cute but REALLY bad for them because as long as Simon sees him as such, I don’t think he can really love  _Kieren_. Not the least of which reasons is because Kieren isn’t actually the First anyway, but because putting him up there as something more than human, something better than everyone else, does two things.

One, it puts him someplace where he doesn’t belong. After all, Kieren really is just a person like he says, and his desire to be treated  _as a person_  should be respected by not just Simon, but everyone. That door goes both ways; he shouldn’t be treated as less than a person or more than a person.

Two, it puts him someplace that no one else has to strive to reach. If there is something inherently  _better_  about Kieren which sets him apart from others, if Kieren is something that others literally cannot be, then there’s no reason to try to get there. That’s not good. Kieren is a  _normal person_  and the good things that he does, anyone can do those things.

So, no, I don’t think that Simon is in love with Kieren— YET. I think he’s going to learn who Kieren really is, though. We know that Kieren doesn’t have a problem voicing how he wants to be treated, and we know that Simon wants to treat Kieren how Kieren wants to be treated, so I think we’ll see that develop along the way.

As for Kieren, well, Dom’s quote says pretty much exactly how I feel about Kieren toward Simon. I think Kieren’s got some learning to do as well, learning how to treat Simon, and learning that Simon won’t necessarily speak up about how he wants to be treated. But, I definitely think that Kieren’s gonna come to love Simon- they’re gonna learn how to love each other, and then they’re gonna do exactly that.

They’re gonna love each other so freaking much our hearts will explode with happiness for them.

 

* * *

 

 

"On Simon wearing cover-up for Kieren"

[_In the Flesh_  Appreciation Week (Day 2: Favorite Episode)](http://rentherotter.tumblr.com/post/93177246121/in-honor-of-our-undying-love-for-in-the-flesh-i)

> “How do I look?”  
> “ _SO_  bad-”

Overall, I have to say that episode 02x04 was my favorite. Every episode crams in a lot of plot and development, but this one is right in the middle of everything, the calm before the storm, the moment where the audience is standing on the precipice of the story’s climax, ready to leap out into the finale.

We see SO MUCH develop during this episode I don’t even know where to begin. From the screen shot above, I suppose, which is a huge step in the development of Kieren’s relationship with Simon. We see them interact and, once again, Kieren rejecting Simon’s cult advances, but accepting Simon’s personal advances, and Simon trying to find a way to separate Kieren from the ULA so that he doesn’t lose him, and at the end we see Kieren stripped bare of all the layers he has used to hide, to try to blend in, and we watch Simon see him in a whole new light as not only someone special to Simon individually, but to everything Simon has come to so devotedly believe.

We see Philip taking his head out of his ass and becoming a better person re: the brothel protest. We see Amy going to change her medication again, and how she is shaking and forgetting things and  _getting worse_  (getting better?). We see, finally, him admitting to her that he likes her. I’m in love with these two, and watching them figure each other out is really magical. We see a bit of Shirley in Philip’s actions in this episode, and I love that.

We see big changes for Jem, re: Gary, and the two of them getting together (what a disaster), and we see her trying to cope with Henry’s death (and her own trauma at having killed the undead during the war). We see her come up against a choice at the lunch table, between Gary and Kieren, when Gary starts telling his horrible story and she doesn’t stop him- but she looks uncomfortable, and I think that’s the first step in Jem’s mind changing.

And ohhhh don’t get me started on that lunch… it was a magnificent display of clashing sides. You’ve got Kieren’s parents, and his sister, and Gary, and Simon, and Kieren, all kind of on their own sides and yet all tired so together as to be inseparable. These forces cannot exist peaceably, and yet there they are, all sat down together at lunch.

Kieren’s Rising story being told over this lunch will forever be one of my favorite things in the whole wide world. The way he hisses out “I killed people too.” always sets my blood racing, I’m just ready for him to go across the table and demonstrate that raw, terrifying power, to show Gary how dangerous he really is, and the fact that he doesn’t is incredible and makes it even better. Kieren being a deadly pacifist makes me so happy.

There are so many things to like about this episode, I feel like I could never cover them all, but I assure you, I love every single second of this episode, from Philip’s awkward sex dream to Simon’s breathless whisper of “ _He’s beautiful.”_

 

* * *

 

 

"Is Simon putting pressure on Kieren to save him?"

[sleepystrawberry](http://sleepystrawberry.tumblr.com/) asked: I'm glad I'm giving you feels :) The thing is, I think Simon might be terrified of going back to feeling the way he did when he was alive - like nothing matters. Now that he has basically betrayed his belief for Kieren, I wonder how he will hold on. Because putting all that faith away and instead just being there/loving Kieren does put a LOT of pressure on Kieren himself. And as I said, I think Simon is afraid most of just ... loosing his feelings again? If that makes sense?

I think it makes sense. Simon’s afraid if he gets left alone he’ll start feeling alone.

What I think is interesting here is your “put a lot of pressure on Kieren” because that’s incredibly accurate! Now I am wondering, because [greenbergsays](http://tmblr.co/mGpDMywraA-VDrJJRzOx8wA) and I have talked at length about the consent in this show, and I’m 100% sure that it would occur to Simon that this situation would put Kieren in that position; where he could leave, but it would leave Simon alone, and Kieren is the sort of person who wouldn’t (want to) do that to another person after what he’s been through, so is it really “consent” to stay with Simon if that’s the case? And if Simon judged it wouldn’t… would Simon be able to stay, given his penchant for not pressuring Kieren (about these sorts of things at least) in the past?

And another question I might post, which is semi-related: if the undead are coming back to life, will Simon, once truly alive again, revert to feeling as depressed and lost and hopeless as he was the last time he was alive?

**RELATED** : [sleepystrawberry](http://sleepystrawberry.tumblr.com/) asked: I completely agree on what you said about Simon probably not telling Kieren what his mission was, although I do think he might imply it? And just not mention the he thought or still thinks Kieren is the First Risen? I also agree that Simon loves Kieren a lot more than the other way around, BUT I don't think Kieren would just let Simon go again either. They might fight but in the end Kieren knows best what it's like to feel completely alone best and Simon did it to protect him and his loved ones.

Oh. [internally crumbles to bits]

“Kieren knows best what it’s like to feel completely alone”

That is the feel I was missing… wow. Because you’re right, of course (I’m still processing all my feels about this show, and it’s so fucking lovely to be getting feels from others, and ideas and headcanons gosh, I have missed this so much). I’m going to sit in a corner and think about Kieren remembering what Alone feels like and applying it to Simon’s feelings and empathizing with him, and how he will balance protecting himself and protecting Simon from that awful feeling.

**RELATED** : [wolfpackbliss](http://wolfpackbliss.tumblr.com/) replied to your [post](http://kedreeva.tumblr.com/post/91586918338/im-glad-im-giving-you-feels-the-thing-is-i-think):

> "ooh, interesting. If Kieren stays for Simon cos he wouldn’t want to hurt S or bc he feels guilty then it’s still consent imho. It’d be Kieren putting Simon’s needs before his own, sure, but it’d be still his choice."

On the one hand I can see where you’re coming from, and I think Kieren is possibly a strong enough character to be able to make that choice from a position of full knowledge.

 

On the other hand, Kieren has been responsible for a lot of hurt, and Kieren has been through a lot of hurt, and facing the unspoken ultimatum of “stay with simon or simon becomes all alone” may put Kieren, despite his strengths, in a position where he cannot make both choices equally well, especially as he may know some of Simon’s past.

 

* * *

 

"Will Simon tell Kieren what his mission was?"

**PART 1** :  [sleepystrawberry](http://sleepystrawberry.tumblr.com/) asked: Do you think Simon will tell Kieren what his mission was? ... I keep thinking about how that conversation would go, if Kieren would forgive him, how Simon is going to cope with being named a traitor etc.

Oh my god don’t even get me started on this particular topic LET’S TOTALLY DISCUSS THIS TOPIC BECAUSE I HAVE A LOT OF FEELS.

I don’t think Simon will be the one to tell Kieren about his mission to kill the First for two reasons.

One, because no one ever seems to tell Kieren anything until it is convenient for them (re: rick’s back) or it’s almost too late for him (re: his passport’s not valid).

Two, because I don’t think Simon knows HOW to tell Kieren such a thing. He knows he should, he may even know he has to, he certainly knows that someone else might if he doesn’t (considering how incensed his former followers are), but where they are in whatever unsteady relationship they are currently in, Simon is in a much worse and more vulnerable position than Kieren. Right now, Kieren is literally Simon’s ONLY lifeline, he is ALL that Simon has; his only remaining family rejected him, Amy is dead, the ULA branded him a traitor, his followers have turned on him, Gary and company will happily be out to get him, and the rest of the town is still on rocky ground about how they feel regarding PDS sufferers (especially considering that Simon was literally the leader of the radical ULA group in their town, I imagine they are not going to be prone to being nice to him).

So what’s left? Kieren. And if we’re all being honest, Simon is faaaarrrr more in love with Kieren than Kieren is with Simon, and Kieren has the support necessary to back himself out of the relationship (and he absolutely has shown that he will not be a part of something if he doesn’t want to be, or if he thinks it will hurt someone). If Simon breaks what he has with Kieren, whatever that may be, that’s it. He’s alone again. Simon knows what that is like. Simon spent his whole first life feeling like that or full-on experiencing that. He spent a portion of his second life feeling that, as well.

And neverminding that aspect of it, I think he plain old just will not want to lose Kieren, regardless of if it will leave him on his own or not. He already proved, via saving Kieren’s life in the graveyard, that he’s willing to give up everything else just to keep Kieren around. Imagine trying to turn around and tell him “I was only there to save your life because I had been planning on ending it.” Simon’s well aware Kieren is protective of his heart after Rick, and protective of his safety after the events of the show.

To wrap this up, I think Simon will be trying to find a way to tell Kieren, or at least a time to tell Kieren, when Kieren won’t freak out (hahhaa *sobs*) and set “Them” aside to protect himself (as Kieren would be right to do, in a lot of circumstances, though WE are all aware Simon would never actually hurt Kieren, Kieren doesn’t know that for sure), and I think someone else will inform Kieren in the interim.

And that will be a disaster that I simply CANNOT WAIT to see the fallout from. I need season 3 like air!

**PART 2** : Anonymous asked: RE: Kieren’s possible anger over Simon over the almost killing and the fact Simon would have done it for his faith - Do you think it’s possible that the revealing of Simon’s back, and maybe a bit of unlocking of what the center did to him will sway Kieren into understanding a little more? Especially since it seems like in season 3 the center and the science might be a bigger element?

[sasquatchkid](http://tmblr.co/mKxqVnbTQb1eS79OaK1NR1Q) sent me a lovely submission with a bunch of topics, so I’m breaking them up into asks like this to address them individually!

I actually have very vivid ideas of how I think Simon telling Kieren about his intention to kill him will go down. I’ve imagined it a dozen different ways, and love them all. I cannot express how much I want that scene, but let’s just say “with the fire of a thousand suns” comes decently close.

In the end, I don’t think that Simon will lead with telling Kieren he was going to kill him, I think Simon will lead with explaining about his own Rising. I think he will tell Kieren he doesn’t remember any of it, including killing his own mother, and I think he will tell Kieren about how he woke up in the center, which will include shedding his shirt to show Kieren his back wound.

I  _need_  Kieren to accept those things when Simon tells him, the same way Amy accepted Kieren’s method of death. I need Kieren to understand that those things  _affected_  Simon in profound ways. And when Simon begins to tell Kieren that the ULA saved Simon from those things, I need Kieren to understand what he’s done in rejecting Simon’s beliefs in the manner that he did (which is to say, not very politely and without consideration to how Simon feels, regardless of who was right and who was wrong).

And when Simon tells Kieren about the graveyard, about how he was there to kill Kieren, I need it to be a confession rather than an excuse. “These are all the things which lead up to that moment. I was there to kill you because I had followed this path.” I think he will, I think he will lay out his transgression for Kieren to see. I think Simon will expect judgment from Kieren, because everyone else has always done that, judged him, deemed him worthy or not.

I desperately need Kieren not to excuse the action and at the same time I need him not to judge Simon for it. Saying “It’s okay” after someone apologizes for something like that is  _really bad_  because that lets them know it was okay, and opens the possibility to them doing it again. We haven’t seen this happen so far; when Kieren went to Jem, he laid his transgression out for her without excuses, and she never told him it was okay. She accepted that it was wrong and that he regrets it, and it is understood that this is something both of them wish never happened and will work to never let happen again.

In another book series, the  _Divergent_  series, confession and apology and acknowledging bad things happening are heavy themes as well, and handled, in my opinion, better than I’ve seen in most other places. There is a point where the MC girl, Tris, apologizes to the MC boy, Tobias, for falling apart over the death of her family, and Tobias tells her very firmly that that’s nothing to apologize for, that her family being taken from her was a terrible thing that shouldn’t have happened. He doesn’t tell her to get over it, he doesn’t try to point out that things are better, he doesn’t do anything but accept that this is a thing which hurt her that shouldn’t have occurred, and acknowledge that she has every right to feel upset about it. he also, later, does not allow her to use this as an excuse for things she does wrong.

That’s all kind of what I’d like to see for Kieren and Simon- for Simon to tell about his past, show his back wound, and admit his intentions, and for Kieren to accept that terrible things happened to Simon, things which should never have happened, but for Kieren also not to yield and say it’s okay. I think that will put them in a place where they can see what has gone wrong and give them a chance to start fixing it.

As to the treatment center and the science aspect of the show (though I really hope they don’t try to explain the science side unless they’ve got a really good grasp on actual science, because I will know if they bullshit too much, and that will be sad for me), I think I agree that they will become bigger elements. We are poised to move beyond Roarton, the same way we expanded our world view just a little between S1 and S2. It’ll be nice to learn more about what is going on outside the town, and be able to compare and contrast what is happening.

 

* * *

 

 "Do Kieren's parents know Simon is part of the ULA?"

[moregeousbdffs](http://moregeousbdffs.tumblr.com/) asked: I like what you wrote about Simon at the Sunday dinner. The only thing I'm not sure I agree with is Steve and Sue knowing Simon was in the ULA. Given how suspicious Steve was of Amy, I'm not sure he would have been so welcoming if he'd known that. And something I've noticed about ItF is that characters don't often find out important information offscreen. If you haven't seen a character learn something, it usually means they don't know (yet).

I would say you’re right in that most of the time people don’t learn important things off screen (thank god, because that’s one of the things I hold so dear about this show), but I would hesitate to agree that they didn’t know he was involved  _at_ _all_.

I say this because they both (Steve and Sue) told Kieren to invite  _Amy_  to lunch, and as you say, they were aware on some level that she was interacting with the ULA (re: them watching the TV for Kieren to learn if she was one of the ones involved with attacking people). She’d been gone a year at the community home, and was not coming back alone. It’s not a far leap to assume that Simon had also been a resident at least, and was involved in some way with the ULA. They probably had no idea how “important” he was to the ULA (for example they wouldn’t know he was a disciple, or that he was probably head of the community where Amy had gone), but I would find it very hard to believe that they weren’t perceptive enough to figure out there was some amount of connection.

 

* * *

 

 

"On Kieren requesting help from Simon to leave Roarton"

[weissshaupt](http://weissshaupt.tumblr.com/) asked: I watched season 2 ep 2 of ITF for the 3rd time recently, and I just realized that Kieren was probably asking Simon if the ULA could smuggle him to Paris or something. I think he says something like 'i thought you guys could do stuff like that' and just. wow. i can't believe it took me that long to realize that. I just had to share my revelation!

The greatest part about this moment… is that Simon doesn’t deny that he could. I honestly believe that if he wanted to, Simon could have done exactly what Kieren was asking for- gotten him the travel papers he needed to get out and go to Paris.

But as Simon says: It’s not about the money. Basically “I could do the thing for you, but I’m not going to, and it’s not because you can’t pay or because I don’t want your money. I’m Not-Doing this because I want you to stay, I want you to want to stay, you belong here where you have your family, and Amy…. and me.”

And that’s just beautiful.

 

* * *

 

 

"On where Simon and Kieren's relationship is going"

Anonymous asked: Forgive me if you've already answered a question like this, but would you mind sharing your thoughts on where you see Kieren and Simon's relationship going? I love reading your meta, and I was wondering what you thought!

There’s nothing to forgive, even if you were the 5000th person to ask me. As it happens you are the first (how’s THAT feel in this fandom *eyebrow*)!

To understand where their relationship is headed, we have to look at where it began. The entirety of season 2 takes place over less than 2 weeks, and from first kiss to taking-a-bullet is only a couple of days- I think just 4, maybe 5.

Prior to Simon’s arrival in Roarton, Kieren had never even heard of Simon, and knew nothing about him. It’s been a year since Rick died, but Kieren is obviously still visiting his grave regularly… perhaps even daily, if Kieren’s lack of any other friends gained over the past year is any indication. He is not expecting to find love, nor is he going to approach a relationship with anything but caution after everything that has happened to him. However, I think he remembers the way his interest was piqued when this mysterious guy recited beautiful poetry to him in the graveyard, before he found out what Simon was involved in.

Simon, on the other hand, has listened to Amy tell stories about Kieren; stories about when she was there with him, and stories from the postcards and/or letters they appear to be exchanging while apart. Simon has had time to get attached to the idea of Kieren, and meeting Kieren only proved to be more powerful for him. Then Kieren turns out (as far as Simon knows) to be what amounts to “the chosen one” (even if that’s not the case, as it was actually Amy, Simon doesn’t KNOW that). Simon has poured his heart and soul into this organization (the ULA) that rescued him from a second lifetime of despair, and he thought he could keep Kieren separate and finding out he couldn’t have both was a major turning point for his character, and he chose Kieren.

Where we are currently at, Kieren has finally decided to be okay with who he is, and resolved himself to stay in Roarton because it’s where he wants to be. He has lost Rick, he has lost Amy, and he has seen so many terrible things happen around him. The stuff with his parents isn’t going to just  _go away_ \- his dad still tried to send him back to the treatment center. He is tentatively trying to start something with Simon.

But Simon… ah, Simon. Simon is  _alone_. He has literally no one outside of Kieren that he can turn to right now. He considers the treatment facility to be  _brutal_. His mother is dead and his father kicked him out because of it. The Undead Prophet (and the ULA with them) has labeled him a traitor and I find it hard to believe that won’t have consequences… dangerous ones. He cannot go back to his commune. He has lost Amy. Gary absolutely would love a chance to kill him. He has lost so much and been rejected enough that he actually expects Kieren’s parents (and possibly even Kieren) to reject him.

So there are your ingredients and it’s quite the recipe for disaster.

What I see happening next, given the show’s relationship with showing  _confession_  rather than excuses or apologies, with people admitting the bad things they have done to the parties who deserve to hear it, I think Simon will feel it’s necessary to tell Kieren about how he was supposed to sacrifice him. He will, at some point when the grief over Amy has quieted a degree, have to explain why he was in the graveyard in the first place. And I think Simon will try to do it before anyone else - such as Gary, who caught Simon in the graveyard watching - gets a chance. But this also involves telling Kieren that he watched him get kidnapped by Gary, and did nothing. it involves telling Kieren that he COULD have stepped in sooner at the graveyard, and he didn’t; he very nearly let Kieren close enough to injure or kill his own family.

I can imagine that this will not go over well with Kieren, given his extreme distaste for all of Simon’s cult bullshit. It will, I think, count for something that Simon has given up all of that in order to protect Kieren, but imagine the moment that it occurs to Kieren that it might have been Amy. That, had Simon not made the mistake of thinking the first was Kieren, Simon might have killed Amy.

I do think, given Kieren’s gentle nature, and the way Simon respects Kieren, that they will move past it, but I also think we’ll have a lot of really lovely, tense moments while they do so. I think that the “problem” of Kieren’s trembling and (if he follows in Amy’s footsteps) forgetting coupled with Simon’s problem of “there may be a cult of undead extremists hunting me down,” will definitely bring them together. I also think that once they realize that Kieren is coming back to life (and that Simon ISN’T yet) they are going to have to deal with that; Simon has been so against The Living and Kieren had FINALLY accepted being dead, and I think they will both be dealing with the issues surrounding that shift in dynamic.

I would really, really like to see Kieren’s family have his back next season. I would LOVE to see Kieren talk to his mom about Simon. I’d like to see Simon and Philip form a friendship a little over Amy.

This got long, but hopefully that gives a good starting point for where I see/hope things are heading. Thanks for asking!

 

* * *

 

 

"Where do you WANT Simon and Kieren's relationship to go?"

Anonymous asked: I just wanted to thank you for sharing all your ITF meta's which are always incredibly thoughtful and insightful and a joy to read. If you were in charge of a 3rd series, where would you want Simon and Kieren's relationship to go? Would you want Kieren to find out about what Simon nearly did at the graveyard straight away? For Simon to share his experience and the treatment center? Kieren to talk about Rick? Just generally how would you want them to develop, angsty or smooth?

There are about a dozen reasons I left this in my inbox for a few days, and I apologize for all but one of them, which is that I wasn’t sure how I would answer this because you’ve asked where I WANT them to go rather than where I see them going.

So, theoretically, if you are asking where I would want to see them go on screen in a series 3, that’s a pretty tricky to explain answer. The thing is, I don’t WANT them to have it easy, I don’t want it to go smoothly, but I don’t want their problems to be shitty problems, if that makes sense.

Kieren and Simon currently [have](http://kedreeva.tumblr.com/post/95500629913/what-do-you-think-are-the-biggest-flaws-in-the) [problems](http://kedreeva.tumblr.com/post/95551175368/i-just-recently-finished-itf-and-one-thing-ive). The majority of these are good, meaty problems but they are not insurmountable problems nor are they “busywork” problems that could be solved if the characters simply mention there is a problem. Simon and Kieren kind of currently have the opposite problem- talking about their problem(s) will potentially cause them  _more_ problems.

So, what I would like to see is that fallout. I want to see Simon figure out how to tell Kieren about how deep his ULA involvement went, talk to him about his past and the fact that he was ordered to and actually considered killing Kieren for the same reason Amy was killed. And yes, I would like Simon to tell him sooner rather than later, because I don’t want this problem to turn into one of those shitty “it’s a problem only because I haven’t told you for so long” problems. I want the problem to be “You tried to kill me for your cult leader” rather than “I can’t believe you didn’t tell me for 6 months.”

I want to see Kieren handle Simon’s confession (and I do want the show to keep with the tradition of confession rather than excuses or even apologies) with grace- whether or not he forgives Simon immediately, I want him to accept the confession and communicate with Simon over whatever he is feeling. Kieren’s already set up to be this sort of character, which is REALLY EXCITING TO ME. Really, really exciting, I love characters who are able to express themselves.

I want to see them acknowledge their problems and show a desire to fix them rather than ignore them or tear themselves apart over them. These two beautiful souls are about to have a shitstorm of badness going on all around them - with the ULA, with Victus, with Halperin and Weston, with the town even, because of Gary I’m sure - and they are going to need one another to get through it all. I want them to recognize that they do not need to be 100% problem-free in order to support one another.

You asked if I wanted Kieren to talk about Rick but… quite honestly, I don’t. I mean, if Kieren gets to a point where he WANTS or NEEDS to talk about Rick, then yeah. But as it stands, I’m actually a little uncomfortable that Amy told Simon about Rick, rather than leaving that to Kieren. And maybe she just told Simon “In Roarton the leader of the HVF had a Redeemed son, and he killed him. It was extra tragic because he was my friend’s boyfriend.” but does that really sound like Amy? Amy, who likes to share, who trusts Simon? No, I’m betting she told him as much as she knew, as much as Kieren did or didn’t tell her.

But that wasn’t really her place, it’s Kieren’s place, and at the end of the day, whatever was between Kieren and Rick is between Kieren and Rick, you know? I don’t see any reason for Kieren to talk about it just to talk about it, especially as he seems to have come to terms with it on some level, and is attempting to move on from the past.

I would really, expressly like to see them have each other’s backs. In all respects- in grieving for Amy, against the ULA, against Gary, against Victus, when it comes to interacting with the town to try to better it… I want to see that no matter what they may be going through with each other in private, they are able to protect one another.

I suspect we are going to see more of Halerpin and Weston in Series 3, and I suspect H&W will be quite eager to get their hands on their original test subject if he shows up on their radar. So I REALLY want Kieren to get to a point where he can help Simon deal with all that baggage, as well as help keep Simon from going back in any way (including sharing his neurotriptyline until Simon can start making his own without the ULA’s help).

and who doesn’t want more kissing?? I want more desperate kisses, and more pleasantly surprised kisses and more in-awe kisses and more I-can’t-believe-you-just-said-that-you-nerd kisses and I have a mighty need for more soft, reverent Simon touches, where he looks like he’s a little worried that if he touches Kieren, Kieren might shatter or disappear or something.

And I want Kieren’s heart to start beating first. I want Simon to worry that his own heart won’t start beating… and worry that his own heart WILL start beating because either option is terrifying for him. And I want Kieren being there to tell him either way is okay, he’s not going anywhere either way.

 

* * *

 

 

"Will Kieren ever leave Simon [how will their relationship change]?"

Anonymous asked: First, I want to say how interesting it is to read your thoughts on In the Flesh and how refreshing (*coughs* teen wolf) it is that the show runner has a bible. It seems I missed quite a lot in my first viewing of the show? I didn't know that Rick and Kieren never kissed or that it was proven the Kieren wasn't the first? Also, you offer such great insight to Siren, do you think Kieren would ever leave Simon or do you think they'll get to equal amounts of love, like Kieren's parents?

 

Re: Rick and Kieren not kissing and Amy being First Risen- both of those things were heavily implied in the show, but neither was expressly said (much as a lot of things are never expressly said on screen, they like to show not tell, which I can really appreciate). The reasons I, personally, figured Rick and Kieren had never hooked up are numerous and lengthy, but the reasons I know Amy is the first and not Kieren are simply because 1) she came back to life first, and 2) the two workers from the drug company came looking for Amy’s unusual test results, implying there was something special about her.

However, there’s no reason to take my word for any of it! [The creator was asked about these things in an interview](https://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.denofgeek.com%2Ftv%2Fin-the-flesh%2F30824%2Fdominic-mitchell-interview-whats-next-for-in-the-flesh&t=NTVkNTM5ZTdjODQxZjU0ZGQ2M2IwMDRkNzA5OTJmZjVkZDRkNjAzYSxlY1BtTGZ4ZA%3D%3D&b=t%3ApDrE-1Xyq8b_UVljyHdNpQ&p=http%3A%2F%2Fkedreeva.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F92379645683%2Ffirst-i-want-to-say-how-interesting-it-is-to-read&m=0) and, refreshingly (*coughs* teen wolf), the creator had no problems answering questions with good, solid, no-nonsense answers. I would highly recommend reading through the whole interview, and rewatching the series with all the new info. It’s all THERE, just in a show-not-tell capacity, imo.

As to your Siren question, I’m not 100% sure that Kieren loving MORE is really the solution, and I’m very certain that Kieren loving Simon to the same level that Simon currently loves Kieren is not healthy. You’re right in that it would be nice for them to find an equality (practically a necessity at this point), but that equality isn’t reached by Kieren climbing to where Simon is. I think they’re going to have to meet in the middle here.

I’m sure that’s slightly confusing, but what I mean is that Simon has currently got Kieren on this  _pedestal_  so to speak. Simon has that sort of personality where he throws himself, body and soul, into the things that he does (something which I personally think he’s always done, but for different reasons). He is in a place where he thinks that he needs someone to follow (which was the ULA before) and… I don’t know “give himself to” isn’t really quite right, but that’s the end result. Simon needs some space to take care of Simon, and to learn how to be a person on his own, find his own values and learn to make his own decisions about his life. Switching from existing for the ULA cult to existing for Kieren… it’s not an improvement. It’s a side step.

What I’m really hoping for is for Kieren to give him that space without letting Simon get lost. There would be a really perfect opportunity for this if Simon tells Kieren about his mission to kill him. Kieren could take a step back then and lay it out for Simon that Simon needs to figure out where he stands when there’s no one telling him what to do. That’s a lot to put on Kieren (and Simon, at this point), but I think that would also 1) allow Simon the space he needs without losing support and 2) allow Kieren a chance to fall a little more in love with who Simon really is; that sweet, confident guy who recited poetry to him in the graveyard.

 

* * *

 

 

"Will Kieren leave Simon to handle the ULA backlash alone?"

 Anonymous asked: i just wanted to talk @ someone about this show and i felt like you might agree (or perhaps disagree!). im REALLY WORRIED for season 3. dont get me wrong, we need a season 3, i will cry for years if we dont get one, but im so worried for simon/kieren. i feel like they've set the table for kieren to leave simon to deal with the ULA backlash alone... with him finding out about the plan to kill him, and simon not having amy anymore, or anyone other than kieren. im so worried for simon ;~;

oh lovely, come here *wraps you up in a big ugly grandpa sweater and puts a warm cup of tea in your hands* Simon will be okay.

Kieren would never leave Simon to deal with the ULA alone, especially if Simon tells him that he broke away from the ULA (ostensibly for Kieren). All season long, Kieren was asking for and hoping that Simon would cut it out with the ULA stuff, so I really do not think Kieren would abandon him now that he has, regardless of the circumstances.

It’s not that I think Kieren won’t hold him accountable for his intentions (thinking about killing Kieren), but it is, in this instance, Simon’s actions which matter the most. He didn’t do it. He couldn’t do it. His whole body reflex was to save Kieren, not hurt him, and I know Kieren will bear this in mind. And I think there’s no universe where Simon tells Kieren that he was going to kill him but leaves out why (his history with Halperin and Weston, his father, his mother, the ULA saving him, the guilt and debt he owed to the ULA for saving him, etc). I think Kieren will absolutely demand those things of Simon, if Simon doesn’t offer them up, and anyone that knows those circumstances knows that Simon’s situation was understandable.

They’ll be okay. They might have some tiffs over this, and it might be a sore spot at first, but they’ll move past it. They’ll protect each other. They will fall in love and live happily ever after together.

 

* * *

 

"How old is Simon, and how does it impact his relationship with Kieren?"

Anonymous asked: hello! your 'in the flesh' meta is absolutely amazing, and you seem to really think things carefully when you answer questions. i was wondering what were your thoughts on how old simon is, and how that impacts his relationship with kieran? there's an obvious age-gap between the two of them, and i find that interesting. thanks!

 

Hello! Thank you!

Well, I think there’s a huge difference between the age of a body and the age of a person. This is especially evident in the undead, as if they remain undead, they will always have a body that is the age at which they died. For example, Kieren died when he was 18, but he has been “aware” as a treated PDSS for a bit over a year. Is he 19? Or is he 18?

I say this because I think that Life can damage a person’s mental age just as easily as the above dilemma. A person who has survived trauma may “grow up fast” or may regress to a younger state of mind.

Physically, I would put Simon as being not older than 30 when he died. If I were going to give a range, 30 would be the top of it, and I’d say anywhere in the 26-30 years range. We know he’s absolutely older than 21, as he talks about going to America when he was 21, and I suspect it is at least 5 years past that time due to the way he speaks of it. He makes it sound like ancient history for him, like it was a time where there was still a spot of brightness/hope in his life before he gave in to the depression and got lost to drugs.

Mentally, I would go so far as to say he’s younger than that. Whereas Kieren’s traumas have aged him, made him cautious, made him wary and likely to treat people with gentleness because he knows what harshness brings, Simon’s traumas seem to have set him back a degree. He has made decisions like a lot of teenagers make decisions; quickly and whole heartedly. When he loves, it is with his whole being, no reservations. When things go wrong, everything is over, no recovery (for example, telling Kieren they need to skip town at the end of S2). He deals (poorly, if I may say) with peer pressure (the ULA) and gets hoodwinked by an authority figure (the prophet) that Kieren sees right through from day one.

As for how it impacts their relationship, I think it’s not bad. I think that they both have strengths and weaknesses, and I think that they are enough different and the same in those things that they will help one another so that they can both heal and grow into “new” people. Simon is helping Kieren to be okay with who Kieren is, and Kieren is helping Simon open his eyes and think for himself. They are  _so good_  for each other in this respect.

I also don’t think that either of them are considering the age gap when interacting. Simon does not treat Kieren with gentleness and respect because Kieren is younger, he treats him that way because he is a person. He treats Amy with gentleness and respect, and he even manages to treat Gary civilly when he agrees to do so. In the bar that first night, Simon simply sits and lets the events unfold around him, and only interferes when Kieren might be hurt; even then, his only interference is to restrain Gary until the threat has passed. Simon is very careful in all of his interactions with people, and Kieren is a person as much as anyone else. Kieren, I think, is paying more attention to how Simon acts than what his age is. Given his history with Rick (who acted one way with Kieren and another in public or around his father) and his family (who are saying they are there for him now, but where were they when he needed them? What is Jem doing dating Gary when she KNOWS how Gary treats Kieren? His own father trying to send him to the treatment facility!), I think Kieren very much focuses on the actions of the people around him to judge how he’s going to treat and interact with them.

All of that being said, currently they are not aware of anyone “rehumanizing” and coming to real life, and so they are faced with the prospect of “gonna live forever unless killed” and in light of possibly hundreds of years to come, 5, 10, or even 15+ years difference doesn’t seem like much.

It got long again, I hope this is what you were looking for!

**RELATED** : Simon was later stated to be 27, according to his headstone ([x](https://twitter.com/bbcthree/status/463070614899945473)), and Emmett (at the time of shooting) was 35. So, go me, I guess!

 

* * *

 

 

"How the Simon/Kieren relationship affects Kieren"

[phil-shea](http://phil-shea.tumblr.com/) asked: I know there's a one-sided mindset some people have in regards to Kieren/Simon. But one of my favorite aspects of their relationship is how much it does for Kieren. Simon is one variable, there are plenty others helping him with his self-acceptance, but I feel like it plays such a huge part in it. Just watching Kierens confidence towards Simon grow and accepting his own (PDS) look. Being able to see that growth in a character, for me, is amazing. And loving yourself is so important.

Oh gosh… okay, I have a lot of feels about Simon, A LOT OF FEELS about Simon, but please don’t get me started on my perfect baby angel Kieren and his self-acceptance because I might break. I don’t even know where to start, I just….

You’re right in that other people have added to his confidence but let’s look at something REALLY IMPORTANT okay? We leave off Season 1 after Rick’s death, and Amy leaves, and Kieren is left alone in Roarton once again. By the time the story picks up again in season 2, it’s been a YEAR. A whole fucking YEAR and Kieren is very nearly the same person he was when we last saw him.

He still feels uncomfortable without his contacts/cover up (to the point of COVERING THE MIRROR still! He’s been covering the mirror for a year! A WHOLE YEAR OF BEING UNABLE TO LOOK AT HIMSELF AS HE REALLY IS) and clearly no one has told him it’s ok not to use it, considering the attitude of the townsfolk when Amy and Simon return not wearing any. He hasn’t made ANY friends that we’ve seen. He is still hung up on Rick to a degree, visiting his grave at least regularly if not daily. He is following his parents’ behavior of just pretending everything is okay and he actually has himself convinced it’s TRUE if he just says it enough! That’s  _heartbreaking_!!

And then Simon arrives, and he’s not wearing any cover up or his contacts and he actually makes this weird face and makes this inaudible disgusted noise when he talks about how Kieren has all that stuff on his face, and there’s that spark in Kieren that wants to be like that. And then Simon talks quietly about being who he is, right here, and that’s all Kieren has wanted and thought he couldn’t have, it’s the whole reason Kieren is so desperate to get out, because he thinks he can’t be himself here and he needs to be. He needs to be himself after everything that happened in his first life and what’s happened since he got back.

And then Kieren gets pushed. Simon pushes him, presses him to see what makes him tick, what makes him act. Simon turns up at his work and watches him while conflict rises- Simon doesn’t even DO anything except exist and watch Kieren in those moment, waiting to see what he’ll do, and that alone is enough pressure to cause Kieren to act. It causes peaceful, gentle Kieren to confront GARY of all fucking people, and not just that, all that anger at hiding boils right to the surface when Gary insults the very thing Kieren is so angry at having to use to hide (“I don’t take orders from a lad who wears makeup” - HE IS ONLY WEARING MAKEUP BECAUSE YOU CAN’T HANDLE SEEING HIM WITHOUT IT YOU FUCKWAD FUCK YOU GARY I WOULD BE ANGRY ENOUGH TO SHOVE YOU THROUGH A BAR TABLE TOO). He is angry enough to, for the first and last time in the series, use physical force to express himself. This is something Kieren didn’t even do when Bill KILLED RICK. Bill literally killed the boy Kieren DIED over his grief for losing, and Kieren couldn’t bring himself to physically hurt Bill. Simon has only been in Kieren’s life for a day and already figured out how to push his buttons and point him in the direction of change.

And then there’s Kieren, who is so cautious, so wary of anything having to do with the prophet… Kieren, who can’t reconcile the smoking hot boy sitting on his gravestone reciting poetry to him with the 12th Disciple of the Undead Prophet nonsense, who is so ready to just walk away because Simon can’t seem to separate himself from it (for example in the hospital, Simon pressing Kieren’s buttons again and finding out that Kieren WILL NOT follow him when it comes to some things), and the moment Simon realizes that Kieren really might walk away, he does a 180 and separates Kieren from his “duty” (“There’s what I believe… and then there’s you”) in the hopes that Kieren understands that Simon doesn’t want Kieren the follower (something I think Simon may have only just realized as well). Simon wants Kieren to be Kieren, and he wants that for reasons that have nothing to do with the prophet. And Kieren… Kieren hasn’t had that before. What I mean is that… Kieren hasn’t had someone that wants him to be himself. There wasn’t anyone, except his few days with Amy, who wanted him to just be who he was rather than who everyone else wants him to be. That’s novel. That’s thrilling.

What’s even more thrilling is that immediately following that, Simon follows through; Kieren asks him to wear his cover up, to come have lunch with his family, to try to participate in the world like Kieren participates in the world…. and it’s a disaster. It’s a disaster all around, and it starts the ball rolling on Kieren realizing that his way of operating in the world actually isn’t any better. It’s worse. He can’t “step out of line” anywhere even when his behavior WOULDN’T BE out of line if he were living. Even with his own family.

And that’s when Kieren stops wearing his coverup. That’s when he goes to the bungalow with Simon, and he takes out his contacts and he starts to wipe off his make up. And that’s when Kieren realizes what he’s done, how what he asked Simon to do (wear the make up and contacts, too) is wrong, is what the rest of the world was making Kieren do. That’s why he gets up and starts to clean Simon’s face first. It is an act of admitting he was wrong, just like their first kiss.

After that, we see Kieren the next morning being unable to go back into his disguise. He is unwilling to go back to hiding, and a large part of that is due to Simon’s influence on him.

SO YEAH. As good as Kieren is for Simon, Simon is just as good for Kieren. And that’s a HUUUUUGE part of why I love them so fucking much.

**RELATED** : 

[rynne](http://rynne.tumblr.com/) asked: _Can we talk about Kieren's character development in his relationship with Simon? You've talked before about Simon being more in love with Kieren than Kieren is with Simon, and I agree with that, but the way Kieren IS with Simon still makes me want to do flaily fists forever. He's simultaneously guarded and open, hesitant to let himself get invested in Simon, but still willing to just GO FOR IT. Especially after everything that happened with Rick (TWICE), he's been hurt so much in this area (1/2) but he still let himself start falling for Simon, let himself kiss him and bring him over the meet the family and tell Simon straight up that he looked for Simon when he disappeared and that basically that hurt. He lets himself be vulnerable with Simon, and it’s just so brave. And of course part of it is that now he’s also letting himself build a support system and that’s a confidence booster too. Idek I just want to flail about Kieren’s character development a lot._

WE CAN TALK ABOUT THIS FOREVER AS FAR AS I’m CONCERNED.

I’m in love with the way Kieren is starting to fall in love with Simon. Gosh, I mean, he liked Simon from the second Simon opened his mouth and started reciting poetry at him in the graveyard, and then Simon had to go and be a disciple of the guy Kieren thinks is dangerous bad news, and watching Kieren work through that to find the real Simon beneath the believer… good boy, Kieren. Keep it up, you can do it! You can find him, help him save himself!

 

* * *

 

 

“Will Kieren move in with Simon + Consequences of Simon’s betrayal”

Anonymous asked: _I don't even remember which fandom I followed you for but I finished ITF last night and all of a sudden like 95% of the people I follow post ITF and Sieren!?! IT'S GREAT!! I'm so emotional over the boys. I love that while Simon fell harder for Kieren, it's always Kieren who initiates their kisses, it's how we know that this isn't a one-sided relationship. I really think they could be great. That they could even work past Simon almost killing him when Kieren eventually finds out. (1/2)_   _I actually think Kieren won’t be too bothered by it because Simon risked his life to protect him, is STILL risking his life. And the fact that Simon already knows about Rick, knows not to push Kieren too hard. I don’t think Kieren will be used to having everyone know about his relationship because Rick was so conflicted over himself. It’s going to be amazing to watch them grow. But I have worries too. What if Rick comes back? What if they kill Simon? I’M JUST SO HAPPY ABOUT ITF_

Yeah there are a lot of people coming over to ITF from TW, so that’s probably where your dashboard conversion is coming from. Hopefully we can all band together and get the show a third season!!

Couldn’t be more in love with these boys if I tried, myself :) I think Kieren will experience an amount of anger at Simon about accepting the mission to kill Kieren, even if he didn’t do it, but I’ve got my fingers crossed that he uses the events more as “You /have/ to be open with me, Simon, that’s the only way this - whatever we might have - is going to work.” Because really, I don’t think Kieren will do it again, everything with Rick and the hiding and the lying and how Rick /didn’t tell/ him that he was leaving. I wouldn’t blame him for not wanting to do that again. And I think that Simon will understand that, and I think watching that healthy evolution will be really, really nice.

I, ah, I don’t think Rick will come back, but I’m 100% sure they will be hunting Simon. I need him to live, though, and I think that he will because of the story that Kieren’s mother told him in the cave after Rick’s death, about how she lost someone, but in the wake of that loss came the person she has stayed with ever since. In the wake of Rick’s death came Simon, and that’s a pretty straightforward narrative promise to the viewer, imo.

 

* * *

 

 

"How will Simon feel about Kieren not being The First Risen?"

Anonymous asked: Thank you so much for posting the link to the interview in my question about missing out on stuff. I definitely have to rewatch now. Just to hammer a few more things out. We were basically told that Amy will be coming back or at least still have a huge part in series three right? And that Kieren was the second to rise because he is now getting the symptoms? How do you think Simon will feel knowing that? (I'm so sorry for all the questions!)

Welcome back! You never have to be sorry about asking questions! I enjoy answering questions (they even help me work out what I believe, myself, sometimes!)

We were told that Amy’s not finished yet (in the interview), so I assume either what they learn from her will have her “living on” in some way or else she’ll actually be brought back (oh please oh please oh pLEASE LET HER BE BROUGHT BACK), so yeah, sounds about right.

I’m guessing if Kieren wasn’t exactly second to rise, that he’s close enough, or at least second compared to who-ever is left. As to what Simon will feel about that…. whooo that is a can of worms if I do say so myself. Let’s look at the situation here.

We’ve already seen Simon being insecure about how Kieren feels about him. Re-watch the scene where he puts on his coverup and contacts for Kieren, and look for when he comes out of the house with Kieren. “How do I look?” he asks. This isn’t a question about his looks, this is ‘how do I look to you?’ I’m 100% sure that, given Kieren’s insistence on wearing coverup and contacts and looking like the living, that Simon (even for just a moment) worries that Kieren will like him better like this, will like how he looks when he looks like the living. And that isn’t who Simon is, that isn’t someone Simon can be for an extended period of time. And you’ll notice that Kieren answers “so bad” instead of reassuring him he looks great; my money is on Kieren knowing what Simon is worried about. Reassuring him that he looks terrible like this is reassuring him that Kieren likes him as himself.

Now, we see later that night, at the bungalow, Kieren is removing his contacts after the disastrous encounter with his family at lunch. At this point, Kieren is making that move into coming to terms with being undead. He literally stops taking off his own cover up when he realizes that he’s made Simon hide, too, and then proceeds to remove Simon’s cover up first. This is an apology. This is “You were right, and I shouldn’t have made you be someone you aren’t and I’m going to stop being someone I’m not, too.” This is Kieren accepting that they are undead BUT it’s important to note that  _he doesn’t want to_. Kieren  _has_  to, because that is what they are and because there is no other option. They are undead, and this will not change, and the only direction to go in is to be what they are.

This dynamic  _changes_  if Kieren becomes living again. There’s a good chance that when it happens, neither Kieren nor Simon will know that it’s something which will happen to all of the undead, and they will be faced with something particularly horrifying; if Kieren is the only one who rehumanizes, he will begin to age and Simon won’t. There would be a day, however far in the future, that Kieren will be taken from the world, and Simon would be the same as he is now, because Simon would have  _forever_. We know this won’t be the case, but the characters may not.

Aside from that, the only living-undead relationships/attractions we’ve seen have ended really, really poorly. Technically Henry never did get together with Jem despite his attraction to her; she killed him. And Amy literally was murdered in front of Philip. It doesn’t really bode well for them, this current environment.

We have to also consider Simon’s beliefs about the Living vs the Undead. He has spent however long since joining the ULA, over a year, believing that the Living are out to get the Undead (which is pretty valid tbh a lot of them ARE), that they are bad news, that the Undead are going to be taking over etc… and suddenly this precious, amazing boy is one of them, and I think he’s going to have to fight to reconcile that. But, he ditched his beliefs for Kieren once, so I think he’ll be able to course correct in this regard.

I don’t think Simon will suddenly stop wanting Kieren, or wanting to be near him. But I think he’ll worry that he isn’t what Kieren wants, or that Kieren will take on the beliefs of the Living now that he is again one of them, and reject Simon. It’s going to be really interesting, that’s for sure!

 

* * *

 

 

"What happened the night Kieren kissed Simon for the first time?"

Anonymous asked: What do you think happened after the first time Simon and Kieren kissed? I saw a post that said maybe Kieren just nodded and left Simon standing there shocked, leaving him amazed until the next morning. I quite like that idea but it just doesn't seem 100% right to me.

I don’t think Kieren just left after that, but my headcanon is based around my interpretation of the word-of-god answer given by Dom in an interview, where he stated he didn’t think that Rick and Kieren had ever “gotten there” in regards to kissing, and that Kieren just went for it with Simon.

That would, I think, make Simon Kieren’s first kiss (assuming Rick was Kieren’s first relationship, which I think it was, and that Kieren didn’t kiss anyone else, which I don’t think he did), which kinda makes that moment big for Kieren? At least, it seems big to me.

I also think that, in that moment, Kieren was really, really upset. People had almost died in front of him. He’d just stepped between a gun and a person who was unable to help themselves, and the last time he did that was when he stepped in front of Rick’s gun. Gary just blatantly shoved into Kieren’s face that he can do anything he wants, basically, because “rotters” (and by proxy, Kieren and his friends) are considered less than human. He just witnessed what happens when someone forgets their medication (or, I think the implication may also be if their medication is kept from them, something I absolutely think Gary would do to try to get someone carted off for noncompliance).

And this is Kieren we’re talking about, Kieren who wants to save everyone, who just wants the world to simmer down there, and play nice. Kieren who thought,  _believed_ , that he could change this place for the better. And I think this is probably the first real moment where he realizes that Simon is right; that if they (the undead) do not stand up for themselves and one another, no one else will. That they are not going to be considered equals, at least not without demanding it, not without a fight.

So Kieren’s just…. he’s just so /upset/ and he needed something to be under his control, and I think that was kissing Simon. And despite that the last time Simon saw Kieren he’d told him he had nothing to say to people like him, the second Kieren turns up looking like THAT, Simon cannot help but switch into care mode again. Simon has been trying desperately to figure out what Kieren needs, and in that moment it’s blatantly obvious that Kieren needs control, and that’s exactly what Simon gives to him. Simon lets him kiss, lets him push, lets Kieren hold on to him.

But we mustn’t forget that Amy is there, and she heard Kieren come in, and there’s no way she would let her BDFF just run off into the night. I don’t think Simon would just let Kieren leave while he was that upset either (I mean, I think he WOULD if Kieren really demanded to go, because I think Simon would do anything Kieren wanted at this point, but I don’t think he’d let him leave without making an attempt to convince him otherwise and for once I think Kieren would allow himself to be convinced to stay and talk as a friend, especially if Amy joined them or if Simon took him to Amy).

So, I don’t think Kieren left. I think he got it out of his system, finding control in kissing Simon, but I think also that he stayed afterward. I don’t think Simon would have pressed the issue of the kiss- I think he would have asked what happened, instead. And I think Kieren, being who he is, would have told them about Freddie and Gary and all the rest. He probably left after a bit, when the talking was done, and with an agreement to come over tomorrow (which he did after the Giveback work was over, as we see).

 

* * *

 

 “On the way Simon positions himself to protect Kieren at the GP surgery”

[Originally accompanied by [3 screen shots](http://kedreeva.tumblr.com/post/93414045883/i-think-this-moment-in-the-scene-is-overlooked) of when Kieren and Simon visited the GP surgery and spoke with Dr. Russo.]

I think this moment in the scene is overlooked because it’s rather subtle.

When they walk up to the GP Surgery, Simon is well behind Kieren, letting him lead their way (as will become typical).

Upon entering, Simon is looking at Kieren (first pic) for cues.

When Dr. Russo calls Kieren’s name, Simon’s attention switches to Dr. Russo and his expression hardens (second pic). Whatever Kieren thinks of this situation, Simon distrusts medical personnel (and with good reason, considering his horrific experiences with them, ESPECIALLY the ones involved with the care of PDS patients).

Simon’s reaction to Dr. Russo approaching Kieren is to move from behind Kieren to in front of Kieren, and stop moving (third pic, though it’s easier to see when they are in motion).

He doesn’t place his body between Kieren and Russo, he’s not blocking anyone from interacting or stopping Kieren from doing anything he wants to do… but he HAS placed himself in such a manner that Russo has to keep his distance from Kieren or else be weirdly in Simon’s personal space. Simon has also placed himself into a position to defend Kieren in an instant if needed, and his gaze is placed off to the side of Russo in such a way that suggests Russo doesn’t need to worry about him because he isn’t even paying attention to Russo. In fact, the rest of his body language suggests his mind’s attention is 100% on Russo.

I love, lovelovelove, this facet of Simon. He trusts Kieren to take care of himself, doesn’t restrict him from doing anything he wants to do, but Simon places himself in a position to step in if he’s needed.

 

* * *

 

 "Was Simon manipulating Kieren?"

Anonymous asked: the way simon held kieren's hand at the party was a lot like how he treats pds sufferers who he is trying to gain the trust of so they tell him their rising stories/become a 'follower'. before this, brian had said kieren was there when he rose. simon seemed very interested. obviously he was looking for the first risen, so this must have given him an idea about kieren. do you think simon tried to manipulate kieren at all to find out more about him? if so, at what point do you think he stopped?

Oh Nonnie, absolutely Simon was using manipulation techniques (although I’m not sure Simon realized he was, I think he’s been doing it for so long and it’s been so effective that he does these things now without thinking, has lost himself to Simon The Disciple and doesn’t remember Simon The Person) on Kieren at the outset. I 100% do not think he was doing it maliciously- he had no idea what the ULA wanted.

Simon’s entire experience with the ULA and the prophet was only good. They saved him. They gave him a home and a family when he was homeless and his family had rejected him outright. They showed him love when he was in a place where it was easy to believe love didn’t exist. There’s no way he thought ill of them, and if anything, he knew that Kieren needed love and support, and the ULA had those things if only Kieren would open up to him and let them in.

Problem being that the ULA is NOT love and support. Something terrible is going on with them, and Kieren sees that and rightly balks at every attempt Simon makes to draw him into it.

When did Simon stop? In the kitchen. Simon stops when he realizes that Kieren’s not fucking around; if Simon pushes him on this subject, Kieren absolutely will walk away, and Simon may not quite realize everything this entails, but he cannot let Kieren walk away. He cannot lose Kieren.

When Simon asks Kieren what he wants, that’s a breaking point for Simon. If Kieren wants nothing to do with the ULA, then Simon will carve a line between them and keep them separate. “There’s what I believe… and then there’s you.” Later, when Simon has to choose one or the other, he finds that he’s already standing on Kieren’s side of that line, and there’s no going back.

**editing to add** : [greenbergsays](http://greenbergsays.tumblr.com/) replied:

> I’d also like to point out that Simon probably treats the undead like he was treated by ULA & at this point, he doesn’t yet know/realize they’re manipulation techniques because he doesn’t realize that HE has been manipulated.

 

* * *

 

 

“Why didn’t Simon intervene when he saw Gary kidnapping Kieren?”

Anonymous asked: If simon cared so much about kieran why didn't he intervene when Gary was shoving a tied up kieran into a truck?

Honestly? Because Simon was being a coward.

As shitty as the situation is in Roarton with the PDS sufferers, as shitty a human being as Gary is, Kieren is alive. As Gary tied him up, he’s probably not looking to kill Kieren and there’s no way Simon knew that Kieren or Gary had obtained any blue oblivion. It looks like Kieren is being arrested (or something) forcibly… but remember what Simon is there for.

Simon is there  _to kill Kieren_.

You have to remember that Simon was ordered to kill Kieren by the guy/organization which  _saved him_. The ULA gave him a home when he had nowhere to go. They showed him love when no one else would. They took care of him and they gave him a place in the world, and they taught him to believe things would get better (when he’d spent his entire first life thinking the only better was for it to end).

Then he finds this beautiful soul, this kind, gentle, no-nonsense guy and he trips over himself to get closer, and Kieren lets him in despite the horrible things Kieren has been through. Kieren demands to be separated from this wonderful thing Simon is a part of, and Simon attempts to convince him otherwise but when Kieren doesn’t budge, he separates Kieren and the ULA.

The problem is that when he tells the ULA (the prophet) about Kieren, thinking that Kieren is  _special,_  thinking that Kieren will finally accept the ULA once he finds out how special he is and how much he will be able to do to save people (kieren likes saving people, after all)… only to have the prophet order him to  _kill Kieren_.

This order literally sends Simon into an emotional tailspin, an anxiety attack that takes him back to all the awful things he experienced before the ULA. He forces himself to remember all that the ULA saved him from, all that he OWES the ULA. He eventually resolves that he must put the needs of all these other people before his own, and returns to Roarton.

But the thing is… he gets there, he goes to Kieren’s house… and he sees Gary going in, and returning dragging Kieren. Gary may be roughing Kieren up, may have bound him and may be carting him off, but Kieren is  _safer_  with Gary than with Simon in that moment.

Because Simon? Simon thinks he  _has_  to kill Kieren if he can get close enough. He has to. He owes too much. _  
_

But if Gary has Kieren, and Simon can’t get to Kieren in time… well, oops! Too bad. Sorry, I couldn’t kill Kieren because I was unable to get to him. Sorry I went to kill Kieren and he wasn’t home.

As long as Gary has Kieren, Simon can plausibly excuse himself for not killing Kieren. If the First must be killed at a specific time, all Simon has to do is accidentally keep Kieren alive until after that. The ULA might turn their backs on him if he outright refused to follow the order, but if he “did his best” and failed, well, then maybe they won’t. Simon, at this point, still thinks he can keep both Kieren and the ULA, somehow.

The important thing is that when Simon was forced to choose one or the other… he chose Kieren.

 

* * *

 

 

“Did Simon change his mind about killing Kieren because Gary stopped him?”

[gayniska](http://gayniska.tumblr.com/) asked: hi i love all your metas they're great so i thought i'd ask you about a moment i think a lot about :3 so, when simon is watching all the stuff with rabid!kieren unfold, the clock strikes 12, alerting him to the fact that it's essentially 'now or never', and simon takes a few steps forward, only stopping when gary grabs him. if gary hadn't forced him to stop and reconsider, do you think he'd have gone through with it? personally i don't think he could have, but i'd like to hear your thoughts :)

Hallo!

I actually don’t think that Gary was what made Simon reconsider. There’s a moment just before Gary arrives, where Steve is talking to Kieren, and telling him that he’s still his son, he’ll love him no matter what, and Kieren’s there RABID and Steve won’t abandon him and I think that is what [makes Simon reconsider](https://31.media.tumblr.com/a13907ec2d8aab8f1ddecb22efa6f436/tumblr_nai5xcw5sL1tnqh5zo4_500.gif).

Kieren is, as Simon has known all along, the sort of person who can inspire that sort of change in the living. Simon wants the second rising to happen because he believes it will bring an end to suffering and persecution for the undead, but Kieren is already starting that, right there in the graveyard. He is fighting the blue oblivion effects because he doesn’t want to hurt anyone, and he’s doing it in front of all these people who think he’s a monster, who have done and said terrible things… and Kieren still doesn’t want to hurt them. That sort of thing changes people.

And Simon looks down at the knife in his hands, and how can he take that sort of person out of this world? How could killing Kieren possibly make the world a better place? It can’t. So he goes to stop Pearl/Jem from shooting Kieren, and that is when Gary stops him.

Because Gary is an asshole who wants Kieren dead. Fuck you Gary.

But yes. I think Simon’s mind was already made up by the time Gary grabbed him, rather than after.

 

* * *

 

 

"Who is the top and who is the bottom?"

Anonymous asked: sorry about the question, but in your opinion who is the bottom and who is the top? or at least, who is usually the bottom and who is usually the top? (simon x kieren)

Well, you haven’t got to be sorry for asking questions but I’m afraid you’re in the wrong inbox for bottom/top headcanons, lovely. I’m 100% on board with the switching and I think they’d both enjoy either role as long as it involves getting their hands on the other.

Literally the only headcanon I have regarding this is that, for the period of time where I believe Kieren will be Living before Simon turns back, for biological, undead-erections discussion reasons, I can see Kieren topping (more/exclusively? Assuming that the undead actually cannot get it up, which I choose to believe for personal reasons that should have no effect on what others believe).

I’ll go ahead and assume you’re inquiring because you’d like some amount of reasoning behind a choice, but the thing is, I have reasoning on both sides here.

Simon is absolutely into letting Kieren take the lead, to decide what he would like to do, what he is comfortable doing. He’s said straight out in the 4th episode that he’ll do anything he can to give Kieren what he wants. He wants to make Kieren happy. But Simon is also, to a severe degree, completely in love with Kieren, and it’s clear (to me at least) that he would like to have Kieren in all the ways. Not just  _any_  ways,  _all_  ways. Given the leeway to have a choice, which I think Kieren would insist they both have choices in this, I think Simon would be into both topping and bottoming. Going slow, plying Kieren with his fingers and mouth until he’s a complete fucking mess of raw, pleasured nerves, and then taking him slowly. Letting Kieren explore every inch of his body, pressing into every touch Kieren gives, feeling Kieren push into him and stay there, panting against his collarbone until he starts to move. Yeah… count me there for all of that.

Kieren has, from day one, wanted Simon to be himself. I think as Simon opens up and relaxes and becomes himself that he’s going to be someone Kieren falls for just as hard. And I think Kieren’s going to want the things he never had in his first life. He’s going to want to be listened to when he takes the lead, and he’s going to want to see that Simon wants this, too. I can see Kieren kissing Simon senseless, backing up the bed and having Simon ride him just as easily as I can see Kieren letting Simon lift him up against the closest wall, nose tucked into Kieren’s throat as he fucks him. I can see it all, and it is all glorious.

I was literally just talking to Greenberg about how much of an instigator Kieren is, how he starts things, and how Simon doesn’t just… idk, meekly go along with them as much as I think some people perceive him as doing. Look at their first kiss- Simon lets Kieren push him back toward the door for two small steps… but then he pushes back, dives into the kiss wholeheartedly. Second kiss, Kieren dives in to kiss him, and Simon brings one hand up to put it against Kieren’s cheek/jaw/neck and slows Kieren down, gentles the kiss into something sweet and slow. Like he’s saying  _Take your time, Kieren, I’m not going to disappear [like Rick]._

And I think that’s how sex would/will go for them. They’ll do what they are ready for, in whatever way they are ready to do it. I think both of them will always consider the feelings and consent and readiness of the other before anything happens. I think that there will probably always be a little edge of “I need to believe you’re really here” to their relationship on both sides. I don’t think they’ll really worry about top/bottom positions; they’ll go with whatever they decide they want or need in the moment.

 

* * *

 

 

"Who is more affected by jealousy?"

Anonymous asked: who do you think would be more affected by jealousy in the relationship between Kieren and Simon? Not in a nasty or mean way but who would be a little wary and perhaps over-think things too much? I was having this debate with my friend and she thought Kieren because he was hurt by the Rick situation and is perhaps more wary of his feelings and getting hurt again. But I thought Simon as he seems a little more insecure and has no support system of his own anymore?

You may be in the wrong askbox for jealousy related questions, as this is one of the emotions I don’t experience and don’t have a good grasp on.

It seems like you’re using the definition of jealous that says “fiercely protective or vigilant of one’s rights or possessions.” I don’t think that either one of them would really suffer from this, though.

Kieren was hurt and abandoned by Rick (and lost him twice to death), so I think that Kieren would be more cautious about investing himself in the relationship in the first place. He doesn’t seem like he’s ready to throw himself heart and soul into anything the same way as he did with Rick, and with good reason. But Kieren also strikes me as the sort of person that once he’s invested himself, he doesn’t turn back and he expects and trusts that his partner will do the same.

Simon, on the other hand, has so far shown himself to be content to follow Kieren’s lead. He has pushed, on several occasions in non-romantic areas, and yielded to Kieren’s will every time. In the bar, he tested Kieren and Kieren walked out rather than play the game. In the GP surgery when Kieren told him to put the key back, Simon put the key back. At the bungalow, when Simon started talking ULA to Kieren and Kieren made it clear he would have no part in it, Simon separated him from his beliefs. When Kieren asked him to wear coverup and come to lunch to meet his family, Simon did. When Simon suggested they needed to leave, and Kieren said he was staying, Simon decided to stay with him.

There’s no reason for them to guard their rights or possessions here, because they know they do not own one another. The amount of consent we have seen from both ends here is telling us that they know they do not have a “right” to anything; each understands that what the other is offering or giving is a gift, a privilege, not a right.

So, I don’t think that jealousy will really enter into their relationship, to be perfectly honest. And I really like that. I really hope that continues forever.

 

* * *

 

 

"What does Simon do with the bullet?"

I like to suppose that when the undead rehumanize, they are healed of the injuries that would kill them (like Amy’s leukemia, or Simon’s spine wound, or Kieren’s forearm wounds).

I also like to suppose that the bullet Simon took for Kieren didn’t come out the other side (considering it didn’t hit Kieren, so it must still be in him) and that Simon will have to get it removed when he rehumanizes.

I like to suppose that the only scar Simon has left is the thin, stitched line left behind by doctors in the city after they took out that bullet, and that it reminds him that there are things in the world worth dying for and they aren’t the things that got him the first go ‘round.

Additionally, I like to imagine that Simon keeps that bullet somewhere safe, and takes it out and turns it over in his hands, and sometimes Kieren comes and sits next to him and he knows what the bullet is and what it means to Simon (and what it means to him), but he just leans against Simon’s arm and doesn’t say a word.

And I like to believe that, someday, Simon takes the bullet down to a jeweler and gets it crafted into a ring that he uses to propose to Kieren.

Because really, what’s better than the thing that almost took Kieren from Simon being the thing that symbolizes Kieren will stay with him?


	5. On Amy Dyer

"Was Amy Dyer the First Risen?"

Anonymous asked: they do explicitly state that amy was indeed NOT the first risen.

One of the /characters/ in the story who was under the impression that Kieren was the First told the other characters in her cult who were also under the impression that Kieren was the First that the First was still out there somewhere. This is vastly different than the story telling us **Kieren** was the First, which it didn’t do. In fact, based upon the flashbacks we see from Kieren, he wasn’t even the second out of the grave.

However, what  _was_  explicitly stated, by the creator as well as a living (and thus fully aware) character, was that Amy was the first to rise.

 **RELATED ASK** : Anonymous asked: Hi, I have a doubt about ITF can you help me? In the 2nd episode we have the flashback of Kieren crawling out of his grave and we can see that other zombies are already walking in the graveyard behind him, and then there's Amy who comes out even after him; this means that neither of them is the first risen but also that Kieren's story is not true; do we have to take the flashback as canon or since it was only the 2nd episode is just a settle in thing that was changed later in the seasons?Thanks!

We do not have to take the flashback as canon, although you are also free to do so. The creator, Dominc Mitchell, said in an interview that Amy was the First and in light of that, I choose to believe that she was the First and that Kieren’s flashback may have been muddled by his being a zombie. That, or First Risen actually means “first to come back to life” not “first to break the soil” so it doesn’t matter what order they climbed out.

(I consider it to be a season 1 continuity error due to the fact that S1 was supposed to be a contained miniseries that was granted a continuation)

 **RELATED ASK [RE: SIMON'S PERCEPTION]** : Anonymous asked: I've been wondering about why Simon didn't at least suspect Amy to be the First. She's from Roarton. He tries to get everyone's rising story out of them and with the time they spent together in the commune I highly doubt it never came up between them. But he doesn't even seem to consider that. What's your take on that?

Well that’s the thing, innit? She spent (at least) 9 months at the commune with him. Chances are, she already told him everything she could remember, if anything, about her own Rising, and got crossed off the list.

When Simon goes to Julian and Julian asks if he’s sure this kid’s the first, Simon tells him that Kieren spoke of his Rising clear and true, and that others bore witness. This, to me, says that there is a belief that the First would starkly remember their own Rising. If Amy doesn’t remember her own Rising at all, then just by that Simon would be able to say it’s not her (even though they have no real idea if the First would remember or not?? but since that’s the assumption, there you go).

It also says that the First’s story should be able to be corroborated by others, and I don’t think anyone ever did point out seeing Amy as First, at least not in our view, so Simon probably dismissed her as First based on those two pieces of “evidence.”

 

* * *

 

 

"On the music at Amy's funeral"

[_In the Flesh_ Appreciation Week (Day Six: Favorite Music Moment)](http://rentherotter.tumblr.com/post/93177246121/in-honor-of-our-undying-love-for-in-the-flesh-i)

> If you must mourn, mourn with the moon and the stars up above  
> If you must mourn, don’t do it alone  
> If you must leave, leave as though fire burns under your feet  
> If you must speak, speak every word as though it were unique  
> If you must die, Sweetheart…  
>  Die knowing your life was my life’s best part   
> 

Keaton Henson’s “ _You_ ” is possibly the most fitting and tragic song they could possibly have played at Amy’s second funeral.

Couple with her change in epitaphs from

> Do not go gentle into that good night  
> Rage, rage, against the the dying of the light

to the beautiful words she leaves behind for those she came to love to dearly that she knows she leaves behind, but - as we can see in the photo above - does not leave behind alone:

> I hold it true, whate'er befall; I feel it when I sorry most  
> ‘Tis better to have loved and lost,  
> Than never to have loved at all

And I think I’ll never really know who the song speaks for, truly. Because Amy was the best part of Kieren’s and Simon’s and Philip’s lives, but they were also the best parts of hers. Does the song play to send her off, or does it play to speak her last advice to them?

 

* * *

 

 

"On Amy an Neurotryptyline"

 **Anonymous asked** : Since I watched ITF because of you (thanks, btw, it's amazing, holding my enthusiasm until s3 is confirmed), I wonder if Amy returning human had something to do with the new med she was on (the something something plus)? Just a random thought.

*SQUEALS* More people watching!!! YES GOOD. Welcome and I will happily hold your hand until we hear about Season 3 (please please don’t let go!)

If I had to make a guess about what Amy coming back like that meant, I would guess that all these people - the vicor, Maxine, the prophet, etc - had the same idea… that there was going to be a second rising. But obviously they are all guessing what it is and choosing to believe these different things.

Personally, I think the second rising is not a second wave of risen dead- I think it’s literally the second rising for those who have come back. They have taken one step toward life, and the second rising is the second step into life again, beating hearts and all.

 **RELATED REPLY** : [shallicomparetheetolagrenouille](http://shallicomparetheetolagrenouille.tumblr.com/post/95731405349/since-i-watched-itf-because-of-you-thanks-btw-its): I agree. I also think that there was a bit of truth in all that ‘kill the first risen and the second rising will happen’ because we see Kieren have tremors in his hand (which he shakes like Amy did the first time we see it happening to her) and it  _does_  seem like Amy’s death triggered other PSD sufferers in showing her same symptoms - or, at least, that’s what seems to be happening to Kieren. But the point is, as you said, that some change is coming and the only reason why the other characters are still waiting around for the second rising to happen is because they were expecting a different thing - a more literal interpretation of that biblical quote. I just noticed how ironic that is, because if there’s a wrong way to interpret the Bible, it’s the literal one. (Also, hi. Sorry for intruding on your meta, I finished watching ITF last night and I’m catching up on meta posts around here, and since I know for a fact you’re good at it [because of your TW analysis] I thought I’d start from yours. XP)

There is nothing I like better than people “intruding” on my meta- and I’m 100% serious. I live for discussion, and watching other people join in is fantastic.

I’m not sure I think that Amy’s death necessarily triggered the “second rising” of them coming back to life, mainly because in Dom’s interview he said that Amy had to die to STOP the second rising, so I REALLY HOPE WE GET A THIRD SEASON SO WE CAN LEARN MORE ABOUT THIS BECAUSE IT IS REALLY CONFUSING.

I’ve been thinking, lately, that maybe she was the first one to show symptoms, and that if she was killed  _before_  she started showing symptoms, maybe the others wouldn’t rehumanize, but instead a second rising of undead would actually begin. BUT if she made it to the point where she rehumanized, it would trigger the first rising undead to rehumanize after her.

So, because she returned to life a second time, the others will, too, instead of more undead rising.

I’ve been thinking this mostly because I’m pretty sure the undead prophet is actually out to get the undead, not help them. I think he wants them all gone.

 

* * *

 

 

"Why does Amy have bruising/injuries on her belly?"

Anonymous asked: hi! can you please explain me this: if Amy had died of leukemia, then why does she have all these scars on her stomach?

Hello! Those actually aren’t scars, I don’t think. If I had to guess, I would say that those markings are cutaneous lesions that form in cases of leukemia cutis.

> Leukemia cutis is the infiltration of neoplastic leukocytes or their precursors into the epidermis, the dermis, or the subcutis, resulting in clinically identifiable cutaneous lesions. (Warning: Graphic photos of cutaneous lesions at source link ([x](https://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Femedicine.medscape.com%2Farticle%2F1097702-overview&t=NTNmYTUxMDUxZGRhNGE3NDFhODEyZmJhZTIzYTQ1ZGNhYmEzM2NlNSxlSDU1cVZ5dg%3D%3D&b=t%3ApDrE-1Xyq8b_UVljyHdNpQ&p=http%3A%2F%2Fkedreeva.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F94371837558%2Fhi-can-you-please-explain-me-this-if-amy-had&m=0)))

Leukemia can also cause easy bruising due to lack of (I think) numbers of platelets in the blood, so there may have been some of that as well. In short, we may be able to surmise not just that Amy died of leukemia, but which  _sort_  of leukemia.

 

* * *

 

 

"What would Kieren have told Amy about him and Simon?"

Anonymous asked: How do you think Kieren would describe what he and Simon have going on? I was just thinking about how he was going to tell Amy but what exactly would he tell her?

Ohhh that’s a loaded question…

The thing is that, the way it was brought up, Amy basically told Kieren she knew, and the only ways she could know is if Simon told her (which Kieren knows he wouldn’t have done, since Kieren explicitly said he wanted to tell her), or if she saw them. So, her asking Kieren gently: “does he like it?” tells Kieren “I saw you” and also, I think “I’m hurt neither of you told me, but I’m not angry.”

It was never going to be a fight between Kieren and Amy over Simon. Anything Kieren would have said following “About me and Simon” would have been honest and open. If you want to know /exactly/ what he would have said, my guess would be that he would tell her that he didn’t plan for anything to happen, but that he would like to kindle whatever is going on between him and Simon into something meaningful, and that if she’s not okay with it, he would step away. I don’t think Kieren would apologize for liking Simon, but he would probably apologize for not telling Amy straight away like he wanted.

I think there’s not any reason Amy would tell him anything other than “it’s okay” for the former part of his confession, and I’m not sure there’s anything to say to the latter part. He should have told her. There’s no excuse, and no  _it’s okay_  for that, because it wasn’t, but a “please don’t do it again” would not go awry.

 

* * *

 

 

"On Amy and Philip's Storylines in S2"

[time-turns-kittens-to-cats-deac](http://time-turns-kittens-to-cats-deac.tumblr.com/) asked: What do you think about how most of Amy's plot arc in s02 is centered around romantic attraction to men? Personally, I can't like Phillip. The whole brothel speech scene was great, but I still find him really creepy and slightly stalker-ish. He met a woman, slept with her and then was suddenly in love with her? That sounds more like infatuation to me. Plus, it's the whole "dorky guy gets gorgeous girl" trope which really pisses me off and is evidence of the show being written by a man. Thoughts?

Oookay, this might take a while, because you’ve managed to fit a lot into a little space. Let’s just take this a little bit at a time (though I’m gonna go out of order to get everything in order). Let’s start with Philip.

_He met a woman, slept with her and then was suddenly in love with her? That sounds more like infatuation to me._

This, in my opinion, is out of order. Even without taking the original script into account, I believe that Philip met a woman (Amy), and was as instantly smitten with her as Simon was with Kieren. Yes, she is beautiful, but during their first encounter she is also bold and different and when he, acting as a member of the parish council (a position he values and sees as Important, much the same as Simon sees his position as Disciple as important and good), pushes her, she makes it very clear that she is not impressed (much the same way as Kieren does when he meets Simon). In fact, in my consideration, the only reason she bends to Philip’s will at all in that moment at the pub is because she doesn’t want to get Kieren kicked out before he can reunite with Rick (which is the whole point of them being there).

Now take into consideration what happens after Kieren and Rick reunite. Amy is stuck there with Kieren, Rick, Gary, and Philip. It’s clear that Philip is on a different page than the rest of them; he sits apart from them, something even Amy is not made to do. When Rick does talk to Philip, it is to remind Philip of a time he was injured participating in their (most likely) stupid shenanigans (most likely trying to fit in/be cool when in reality Rick and co were probably more interested in making fun of him, all things considered). Then… then Dean enters, and Bill, Rick, Gary, Dean, and Kieren are dragged off, leaving Amy and Philip alone together in the pub.

 

I haven’t seen anyone give thought to how Amy and Philip actually ended up back at Amy’s, but something had to have happened between when Kieren left her and when we see her dressing in the morning. And until Philip starts having his little freakout-meltdown, her behavior indicates that he wasn’t being a jerk to her during that time. Chances are that once she was abandoned and there wasn’t anyone threatening Philip to get him to remove Amy from the place, Philip sat down with her, or at least started talking to her from where he was sitting. My guess is that they talked for a good long while, long enough for Amy to, in some manner, forgive him for how he treated her (not excuse it, but recognize that he had the potential to be a better person than that). Long enough for her to invite him back to her home- because there’s no way that was Philip’s idea, there’s no way Philip was the instigator - and long enough for her to feel comfortable undressing in front of him, and to have sex with him.

Think about the moment she showed Kieren her injuries. Her leukemia bruising. That’s incredibly private shit, but Amy trusted Kieren. She wanted Kieren to trust her, too. There’s no way Philip didn’t see those same injuries, and if he’d been an asshole about it, freaked out about it at the time, do you honestly think Amy wouldn’t have kicked his dumb ass out of her house? Cause I don’t. Which means that she showed that part of herself to him, and he treated her with enough respect that she felt comfortable continuing.

In the morning, by the light of day, Philip has a freakout. The night previous, he was only considering himself and her, only considering his fascination with her, only considering what they wanted in that moment. Now he’s had some time to think about it, and he gets scared. The town is still wildly against PDS sufferers, especially Vicar Oddie and Bill (two of the town’s council leaders, who are in control of Philip’s job and reputation, something which would affect him getting a job in the future if he was booted from the council). He doesn’t know about his mom, so has no idea if she would even support him, and the people we see that are available to interact with him (Gary, Dean, and Rick, at least), just literally left to hunt down people “like” Amy, and Kieren went with them so Philip has NO IDEA that Kieren is actually against what they are doing.

So yeah, he gets freaked out that his life could literally take a pretty sharp downward turn for a girl he’s only just met the night before. His reaction is understandable, if not excusable (it was inappropriate and rude, of course it was).

Now, in the script, there is a deleted scene where Philip approaches Kieren to ask where his friend Amy is, ostensibly to apologize or try to work things out in light of more recent events, because he’s had even longer to consider things. Since this isn’t in the actual show (I wish it had been, but it was inappropriately timed), it can’t really be taken as truth, but it does color my perception of Philip’s actions. Like Simon, Philip has realized he met this beautiful person, and wants to attempt to work things out with her even though he was kind of a dick at first.

_Personally, I can’t like Phillip. The whole brothel speech scene was great, but I still find him really creepy and slightly stalker-ish._

Of course everyone is entitled to like or dislike whomever they want. Like the Romans (I think) said, you shouldn’t/can’t argue taste. Personally, I love Philip.

Because here’s the thing- Philip, like so many of the other characters, fucks up (and it’s no secret how much I love characters fucking up). He fucks up bad. Instead of facing the woman he began to fall for (as she is unavailable, he has no idea if she’s ever coming back and probably no idea where she’s gone, I doubt Kieren shared that info), he fumbles around making a very human mistake (a series of mistakes) as he tries to deal with his feelings.

Personally, I’m not sure that he was hiring the Amy look-a-like for sex at all. There’s really no evidence that says they did anything more than fulfill Philip’s desire for romantic connection (which, may I remind you, does not necessarily have anything to do with sexual desires). What we see on screen is that Philip goes to the brothel expecting to be “welcomed home” by her. He brings a soppy romantic movie, and is waiting fully clothed on the bed to cuddle with her, and her body language gives no indication (to me, anyway) that she expects to do anything more than that. Every time we see him there, he is fully clothed, as is the girl.

Of course, that’s really just my take. He was paying someone for some facsimile of a desire that he was unable to fulfill with the person he desired to fulfill it with, sexual or not. It’s not stellar behavior, it’s (in my opinion) a mistake, it’s definitely something he would have to tell Amy about sooner rather than later and work out with her if she lives, and if she would even want to work it out with him. 

The thing is, Philip makes this mistake…  _and then realizes it is a mistake_. Throughout series 2, Philip is making this amazing journey of self-discovery. He asks Maxine “there are limits, aren’t there?” when she tries to push him into lying and hurting someone. Where he starts in series 1, Philip is SO CONCERNED about what other people think, and about his position in the town, about the power he does or does not hold, the influence he does or does not have, and how his actions will affect those things.

Throughout series 2, we see Philip learn that those things don’t matter. What matters is what he thinks of himself. What matters is his own integrity, and how he treats others (Henry’s mother and Amy both). What matters is that he does what is right, not what is expected of him, not what is easiest, not what will get him what he wants- what is  _right_.

The brothel speech is fine on its own, of course it is. We see him trying to explain to the town the idea of “let he who has not sinned cast the first stone” and while they don’t listen, he refuses to stand with them, on his own principles. He sees Amy in the crowd, of course he does, but that’s not why he does it.

Because what I find MOST important about this scene, is that Philip 1) goes to stand among the accused of his own accord, fully knowing what it will mean for him, how it will affect him in the town and 2)  _he does not seek out Amy afterward_.

His speech at the brothel is for no one’s benefit but his own. Yes, Amy is there but that’s NOT why he does it. He does it for himself. He does it for the girl who had helped him, who he ostensibly wronged, because she doesn’t (as do none of the others) deserve what the town is doing to them. It was brave of him, and it was The Right Thing to do, and I’m so incredibly glad he did it, as it is the first step toward bettering himself and correcting his previous actions.

And more importantly, he doesn’t stop taking those steps after Amy talks to him at the bus stop. They are both surprised that he was as candid about his feelings toward her as he was. What chances she gives to him after that are not chances he chooses, not interactions he instigates. Amy asks him to go to crazy golf. Amy proposes a kiss, and Philip, upon not fulfilling what she asked of him, does not expect her to kiss him. Amy asks him to come to her tent. Amy asks him to go to the fete.

And the fete… the moment that Philip doesn’t flinch when that cranky old witch tells him Amy isn’t valid, is possibly one of my favorites. This is his chance to go back to the way he was, but he doesn’t. He’s made his position clear, and he is unwilling to go back to how things were. He doesn’t even think twice about publicly defending Amy now. He knows he is in the right and consequences be damned. Let people say what they want; they’re wrong and they should feel bad and now he knows that and is working toward adhering to being better than that.

_Plus, it’s the whole “dorky guy gets gorgeous girl” trope which really pisses me off and is evidence of the show being written by a man._

To be honest, I have no idea where you are coming from on this count, as I don’t see them fitting this trope at all.

Not every pretty girl really fits into the “gorgeous girl” mold from this trope, and I don’t feel Amy fits it beyond the criteria of “pretty girl.” This role is typically filled by a girl whose character is based around her beauty, and if Amy’s character is based around anything, it’s her enthusiastic will to live, not her appearance.

On the same vein, not every awkward boy fits the “dorky boy” mold this trope is built for. Philip isn’t a social outcast in any sense of the term. He is a member of the parish council (being promoted from clerk to actual member), personal assistant to the leader of the town, loved/accepted son, and “one of the guys” in the Rick-Gary-Dean-Kieren-whoever else group of the town’s most “popular” group of kids. Granted, not the highest ranking member of said group, arguably the lowest ranking, but he wasn’t there on someone’s else’s say-so (as presumably the actual outcast, Kieren, was there on Rick’s).

Additionally, and you can (and probably should) take this with a grain of salt, by my experience, this “dorky guy gets the gorgeous girl” trope generally revolves around the guy wanting a girl he can’t have _because she doesn’t want him, presumably because he is dorky_. He must then do something which proves he is not dorky, something worthy of winning her like a prize.

Amy may tell Philip off after he is a dickhead at her place, but I don’t see her not wanting him. The problem is that she DOES want him, but she knows she doesn’t deserve to be treated like she was that morning. The problem is that he was probably just as sweet the night they slept together as he is trying to be during series 2, doing things like turning up the thermostat for her when he thinks she is cold, and silently taking her thinly-veiled admonishment (her story about the alarm clock) because he knows she is right to feel the way she feels.

He never tries to excuse his behavior because he knows he fucked up. He just tries to do better, to treat her how she deserves to be treated, how he should have been treating her from the start. He doesn’t press her for anything, including forgiveness and especially a second chance, because he knows better. He knows she owes him jack-shit. None of what he does is done to win her; it’s done because he is trying to be a better person.

To me, that doesn’t speak of the “dorky guy gets the gorgeous girl” trope. It speaks of character development and the ability for people to learn and grow and become new/better people around one another. And that’s not an indication of a story being “written by a man” so much as an indication that the show was written by a person who wants to see people do the right thing, and send the message that you can still do the right thing  _even after fucking up_.

_What do you think about how most of Amy’s plot arc in s02 is centered around romantic attraction to men?_

This is very leadingly phrased- would you be less offended than you seem if her arc had been centered around romantic attraction to women? I mean, I get what you are asking - we see so many women sidelined as only romantic interests for men in our shows - but the way you’re asking tells me you’re coming at Amy’s storyline from a vastly different angle than I am. 

First, I don’t think Amy’s arc  _centers_  around romantic attraction to men. I think her storyline contains her romantic interest in Philip (as opposed to the show containing Philip’s romantic interest, Amy, which I consider an important distinction), which is a continuation of part of her storyline from S1, but she has a lot of other stuff going on.

Amy didn’t come back to Roarton for Philip. Amy came back for the ULA, on a mission. Amy came back because she is supposed to help with the search for the First. She gives the ULA members a place to meet, and appears to be keeping tabs on at least her dose of NTL, as well as Simon’s. Amy returned to Roarton to see her BDFF, whom she’s been writing letters with for a long time now and whom she has missed terribly.

While in Roarton, Amy attempts to help change Roarton. At the commune, she learned again to be herself (going au naturale, recognizing herself as Redeemed rather than “zombie” or “PDS,” remembering how to stand up for herself in the face of danger, finding strength in herself), and she wants to be able to share that with Kieren (and the other ULA members). She stands up to Gary (with Simon’s presence as backup she ended up not needing), who had terrorized her before (which is huge, being able to stand up to one’s assaulter is HUGE okay). She puts her foot down and refuses to attend the Give Back bullshit.

And all this while, we see Amy suffering this consuming fear that she is going rabid, and she’s terrified of telling her friends because she wants to believe it isn’t true. She’s seeing the doctor, and seeing Shirley, and trying to convince herself she’s fine. She’s trembling and having seizures and forgetting things constantly and trying to silently cope with all of it, brush it off as nothing, ignore it as long as possible.

If anything is the center of Amy’s arc in S2, it is her rehumanization. She is The First. She is the one everyone is looking for, that everyone is hunting in one way or another. She is supposed to be the first to turn back, the first to truly live again. It is her heart that will beat before any others. She is the one Halperin and Weston want most in the world.

Amy’s arc is in her epitaphs. She begins the show angry at what she did not get to have in life (“Do not go quiet into that good night; rage, rage against the dying of the light.”), and she ends the show thankful for all that she had (“tis better to have loved and lost, then ne’er to have loved at all”). That’s a huuuuuge piece of character development, and it’s not centered around romance, imo. It’s centered around the family she found in Kieren, in Simon, in her friends at the commune, at her interactions with the ULA members of the town, even with Kieren’s parents and sister. And yes, Philip is a part of that, but he’s certainly not center stage of Amy’s development.

So, this got pretty long, but I hope that gives a good idea of what I think of them, apart and together. Like Simon and Kieren, they have their issues, there are fucked up things, but in my opinion, they both were (are, Amy will be FINE DAMMIT) on the road to growing and being better than their starting points.

 

* * *

 

 

"On Philip admitting he likes Amy"

[_In the Flesh_  Appreciation Week (Day Five: Favorite Scene)](http://rentherotter.tumblr.com/post/93177246121/in-honor-of-our-undying-love-for-in-the-flesh-i)

> “Who’s there? Who is it?”  
> “A zombie!  _Worse_  than a zombie!”  
>  _“_ What’s worse than a zombie? … Two?  
> "A drunk zombie!!”

I’m incredibly hard pressed to choose a favorite scene- I’m actually pretty certain the entire series is my favorite scene. I was going to go with Kieren’s rising story scene  ~~because I have a serious Kieren Walker problem right now and I can’t seem to shut up about him send help~~  because it’s so powerful, but I think that this particular scene is just as powerful in different ways, and I want to give it a little bit of love.

To understand why I appreciate this scene so much, you have to understand Philip Wilson. Philip is a young man who strove so hard to find a solid place to be in his life. He wanted to be a part of the political leadership of the town because he would be  _important_. His opinion would not only matter, it would be a voice of influence, if not change. When Maxine Martin arrived, he was even willing (or thought he was willing) to compromise his beliefs in right and wrong in order to get there. He came from a place in season one where he was being manipulated by Vicar Oddie, lied to by his mother, and was put into the uncomfortable position of playing peacekeeper at the bar when he had to try to ask Rick and then Kieren/Amy to sit in the back, and then had to sit by while Rick and company basically made fun of him (implying heavily that it had been that way in his childhood, and I’d guess this was partially responsible for Philip’s desire to be in a position of power instead).

In season 1, he met Amy Dyer. She walked through the door of the pub, and he was instantly enamored of her. She’s beautiful, and sassy, and strong, and she doesn’t want listen to a damn word he says (as if he could speak very coherently to her at the time, smitten as he was), but she does so because she doesn’t want to get Kieren kicked out of the pub. She is also, I think, a little vulnerable at this stage.

In the end, he goes home with her that night, and Philip isn’t a mean person. He’s not a bad guy. He’s kind of a coward, in the start here, but he’s not mean. They probably had a lovely time that night, if the state of their undress in the morning is anything to go by.

The thing is, as smitten as Philip is with Amy, the town’s position on “rotters” is very, very clear, and what he just did with Amy - despite how awesome it was and the fact that in a whole year he won’t get over her - could lead to him being demoted or removed from political council, and Philip, for lack of a better word, panics. He says some nasty things which Amy, because she is wounded in that moment, responds to in kind.

They make a complete fucking MESS of themselves.

And then Amy leaves. For a year, she is gone figuring herself out. She attaches to Simon because Simon won’t do what Philip did; he  _can’t_  do what Philip did, because Simon, as much as he loves Amy, never loves Amy  _like that_.

Meanwhile in Roarton, Philip just has an absolute Amy meltdown, to the point of hiring an undead sex worker to dress and talk like Amy, and to cuddle and watch movies with him. This later gets him into MAJOR TROUBLE as Maxine Martin tries to blackmail him into compromising his morals rather than having his secret outed.

And just prior to this scene, we see Philip put his foot down. We see this guy who previously such a coward decide that enough is goddam enough. He is through taking Maxine’s shit. He’s through hiding. He’s just DONE. So he tells the town about his  ~~sexcapades~~  escapades with the sex worker, in front of Amy no less, and then trots off to get quietly drunk at a bus stop. He has clearly seen Amy there at the protest, walks past her even if I recall correctly, but he has not done this for her. He has done this for him, whether or not she forgives him for what he did. He has no expectation that she will- in fact, I think he accepts that she won’t, and he stands up and does all of it anyway. That’s IMPORTANT to me. It’s important that he didn’t do it to try to win her over; he did it because he realized he’d done something wrong in sitting by and letting injustice happen around him without trying to stop it.

And finally, we have the scene above. We have Amy, who has gone and obtained a bottle of booze out of solidarity. She has witnessed so many things tonight (Kieren and Simon kissing, her own shaking/seizures etc are getting worse, Philip standing up for lots of people including himself, etc) and though she can’t actually be drunk with him, she sits in the bus stop area with him, and injects a little humor into his admittedly terrible situation.

And how does Philip react? Well, he’s certainly not going to make the same mistake twice, that’s for sure. He softly tells Amy that he doesn’t fancy people  _because_  they have PDS. He fancies certain people that happen to have PDS… he tells her he fancies… her, actually.

And after all the trauma, all the dreadful things going on in Amy’s life that she’s tried to gloss over, Philip just hands her his heart, knowing quite well that she could decide to do exactly what he did a year ago.

And Amy, being Amy, sits back silently against the bus stop building, and she doesn’t. She does not break his heart. She does not tell him off, she doesn’t yell, she doesn’t bring up the past. She silently accepts his admission, and whatever passes between them in that moment, he is happy to see her again when she shows up at his house later.

I just… This scene is SUCH a huge turning point for them. Watching Philip take his priorities and shift love to the forefront of them… the way Amy treats their respectively tragic days with humor and a certain amount of plainness that strips them of their gravity and makes the burden easier to bear. Finally seeing this old wound have a chance to heal, and for someone to so blatantly offer themselves up to her rather than the other way around…

I love these two a lot, and watching them develop apart has always been a pleasure. Watching them develop together like this is doubly a pleasure, for sure.

I need a season 3 so that Amy can come back for more.

 


	6. On the Walker Family

"On Jem"

[_In the Flesh_  Appreciation Week (Day 3: Favorite Living Character)](http://rentherotter.tumblr.com/post/93177246121/in-honor-of-our-undying-love-for-in-the-flesh-i)

> “This family… is fucked.”

I don’t have as much time tonight as I really need to sing all of my love for Jem Walker, but she is absolutely my favorite living character in  _In the Flesh_.

First of all, I have a soft spot for little sisters. My own little sister is my weakness, and I see that reflected so perfectly in Kieren. Of all the people in the world he left behind, I think he was sorriest to leave Jem… and she was the one he looked forward to seeing most. Her opinion of him is possibly the most important of anyone on the show, to him.

And the fact that the first thing she does when she seems him is 110% outright reject him, refusing to even acknowledge him as a sentient creature (calling him “That”), invested me entirely in seeing them fix that.

What we get at the start of the series is this angry, confused young woman. At 14, she lost her friend Rick (because I do believe that he was friends with her, if only because she was Kieren’s little sister and Kieren was important to her) and then her big brother soon afterward. And then the entire world erupted into this horrifying, chaotic nightmare, and she was thrust into a war there was zero way she could ever have prepared for. She killed people. She was nearly killed several times. I would bet money she watched people, comrades, die in front of her. The emotional and mental scars this kid earns in the ensuing 4 years are unimaginable.

And then the war ends, and the monsters start turning into humans, and the only safety net she had, the HVF, is getting disbanded. She fever-dreams about finding her dead brother hunched over her friend’s fresh-killed body, his face red with her blood, and then Kieren turns up in her home. She wants her brother back, but there’s nothing that can rip out those memories so she can reach him.

We see her struggle with this. We see her compartmentalize Kieren, separating his pale, rabid-state face from his mousse-covered one. We see her tell herself that it’s her brother looking out from those brown eyes, and how she freaks out when she can’t see him past the pinprick ones.

We watch her struggle with normalizing her behavior again, and just plain old being unable to do so. She freaks herself out to the point of shooting Henry because she can’t let go of her fear of rabids or her war trauma. We see this beautiful girl struggling to do the right thing by turning herself in, being told she doesn’t have to, being told it’s taken care of while the guilt eats her up and hollows her out and the only one to ask her what she wants, to offer the sort of help she needs, is the brother she has to learn not to be afraid of.

Jem is so strong to have survived so much, but she is fragile in ways that make her liable to break unevenly, and I love that about her. I love watching her work through her problems, I love watching her mess it up sometimes. I love watching her development toward this amazingly human person in a world full of monsters- human and undead alike.

 

* * *

 

 

"On Jem and Kieren"

[kittysnotahappybunny](http://kittysnotahappybunny.tumblr.com/) asked: _Ked, I have sooo many feelings about Kieren and Jem and their amazing sibling relationship!!! They've been pretty close before Kierens suicide, just imagine how angry Jem must have been when Kieren killed himself. "You didn't even leave a note" kills me every rewatch :( And then he comes back with PDS and she's so angry. And I just think it's so realistically portrayed how her attitude fluctuates between anger and relief and antagonism and sibling love. Especially paired with her PTSD and involvement with the HVF. It’s all just so perfectly complicated and multidimensional. How many female characters get to have so much depth nowadays? And Kieren feels so guilty and is so hurt that his little sister just can’t accept him but when she needs him he’s always there for her. And I love how he doesn’t push but when she says she needs help he’s immediately like “okay, we’re going to get you help”. This show is just so perfect,I’m in love… Sorry for the feelsdump,have a nice day <3_

 

NEVER APOLOGIZE FOR FEELS DUMPS!!! *squeals and runs happy circles around you*

I have so many Jem and Kieren feels oh god… I’m not even sure where to start so I’m just gonna pick up with how they must have been before his death because geezus, she was the only one who knew where he would be, which meant she knew where he used to sneak off with Rick, she probably helped him cover who knows how many times when he was sneaking around with Rick and he TRUSTED her to keep that secret. She must have taken it SO PERSONALLY when he left her, and she should, it was personal, she was young, she loved him, she thought he loved her, and then he just left her… the same way Rick left, no note, no goodbye. He disappeared and he left her and she must have thought she needed him.

And when he comes back, ohmygosh, when he comes back and he’s in the therapy group and they ask him what he’s looking forward to most and it’s JEM because she was the light of his life, maybe one of the only lights still burning when he left, and how many things does he want to say to her? How many words die on his tongue when he sees the way she looks at him the first time she sees him after he comes back?

She loved him, she lost him senselessly, and the next time she saw him alive was when she caught him consuming her dead best friend. The next time she saw him was four years after he died, four years she spent growing up too fast in a deadly, war-torn world that taught her the creatures that hunted her and her companions were not human, were demons, were monsters. The next time she saw him, she carried all of that with her, and couldn’t stand the thought of such a monster wearing her brother’s skin, taking his place, making a mockery of the scars she’d earned from losing him.

The way he comes to her in the third episode, and just confesses to killing Lisa, the way he lays that at her feet and he doesn’t ask for forgiveness, he doesn’t offer excuses. He is not telling her for himself. He is telling her so that she knows he understands why she is angry, so that she knows he knows it was a terrible thing he did, and that he doesn’t blame or judge her for thinking so. He tells her because he took something precious from her - first himself, then Lisa - and there is no way to repay that, and there is no moving past it unless it is acknowledged. He is telling her because she needs to hear it in order to forgive herself, as she has spent so much time blaming herself for not stopping him. And she, in return, admits that she thinks she should hate him, but she doesn’t.

And in that same moment, if I recall, he admits he is glad she didn’t kill him. She could have. She maybe should have, according to her past experience. But she didn’t, and he’s thankful and DO YOU EVEN KNOW HOW MUCH THAT MEANS?? This is the kid who wanted to disappear so badly from life that he took the matter into his own hands… and he’s admitting that he was wrong about that, too, and that he is grateful for the second chance Jem has given him. This time, he is glad to be alive. This time he won’t leave. The way she asks “are you?” breaks my heart ughhhhhh and then he follows with “I am” like the admission is breaking him apart and you can just HEAR all the guilt and regret, how much he thinks now that he shouldn’t have left then.

Then later, when she gets Rick’s message, the way she bolts off shouting for Kieren… she can’t lose him again.

Ugh, watching him try to figure out what is going on with her. The way she defends him when their dad starts laying into him at the start of season 2… jnsz;djvn;srjhyh At the end, when she finally admits she needs help, this strong, beautiful, capable, amazing young woman finding the strength to admit to one person, her beloved brother, that she isn’t doing well and needs help…. gosh. The way he folds up any other plans or questions and just puts himself at her disposal, willing to do whatever they need to do to make it better for her  _because Kieren never got that help_  and then it was  _too late_ and he will never, ever let that happen to Jem. Ever.

These two are so… ugh I love them. I just have so many feels for them. Thanks for sharing yours!!! <3

 

**PART 2** : Anonymous asked: I looooooove Shirley too so much. And the Wilsons ended up being my favorite family. Was really impressed by Philip's character development. I love the Walkers too but I was angry at the parentals and Jem in S2. Glad they were OK in the end but there was still the issue with poor Henry. S3 needs to happen. Seriously. Aaaargh I'm gonna have an epic sulk if they don't start filming in October.

I was absolutely FASCINATED by Jem’s progression through S2 in regards to Kieren, tbh. His dad was a little all over the place, and his mom I mostly just wanted to rattle into learning to stand up to people sooner, but Jem… oh my gosh Jem and Kieren.

When we see her and Kieren in Ep1, we see that they have clearly “patched” things up, and are getting along like brother and sister now. They have small bickering arguments (like when he returns his mousse to her in front of her friend) that I think really have less to do with him being undead and more to do with “I DO NOT STEAL YOUR MAKEUP IN FRONT OF MY FRIENDS KIEREN.” and the like.

What we see later on is that this… truce? This  _truce_  they have formed, this relationship they have built, was built on the foundation (lol) that he continue wearing his makeup and contacts. As long as he pretends to be normal, she is pretending to accept him as the person she lost.

The first time he comes down to the dining table without his makeup, she literally gets up and leaves, exclaiming that she can’t be around him at all when he looks like that (like himself, like who he really is, when he isn’t lying to her). She does a complete 180 on him. I find that really fascinating, to see the differences in how she felt about their relationship vs how Kieren was seeing it, and yet they are both hurt when it crumbles.

The important thing, though, is that this… hmm, the way that they  _break_  at that point seems to be so necessary to them healing the right way. It’s like how if a bone breaks and heals wrong and you have to rebreak it to set it right… that’s what Jem and Kieren experience between them. They break apart in such a painful way, but when they do reunite, Jem has worked through some of her own problems (obviously she still has a lot of them) enough that she has started to be Jemima, the person, rather than Jem the HVF warrior or Jem the little sister or Jem the big sister or Jem the daughter or Jem the lover. At the end of series 2, we see Jem the person, the same way that we see Kieren the person, with no contacts or mousse, and a strong sense of who he is and what he wants.

And watching that, watching them come apart at the seams and stitch themselves back together slowly has just been amazing. Now we’re seeing the healing, and we get to see the real Kieren offering up help to the real Jem, and I think they have a chance at forging something so much more genuine this time around. I can’t wait to see it!

 

**PART 3** : 

[_In the Flesh_  Appreciation Week (Day 4: Favorite Relationship)](http://rentherotter.tumblr.com/post/93177246121/in-honor-of-our-undying-love-for-in-the-flesh-i)

> “What do you want to do, Jem?”  
> “I think I need some help, Kier.”  
> “Okay. Let’s get you some help, then.”

I will fight to the death for Kieren and Jem. I am the biggest sucker on the planet for siblings struggling to be siblings, and Kieren and Jem have got all the right stuff to break my heart.

I can only imagine what their life was like before Kieren killed himself. We know that he knew her possibly better than anyone, that he was the one to draw her true self out when she was busy trying to tiptoe around without being noticed. He gave her that mixed CD of “hardcore” music and I will forever defend my headcanon that the music she was listening to the first time we meet her in her bedroom is music from the CD Kieren gave her. It’s the music she held onto when he disappeared from her life… he may not have left a letter, but he left her those notes.

I love thinking about how much Jem did or didn’t know about Kieren when they were young and alive. I like to think she knew about Rick, and that she covered for Kieren when he was out with Rick. I like to think that Kieren would tease her softly, the way he did when he found her on their doorstep (“I think he’s got a  _thing_  for you!”) and she would get higher-pitched and OMG KIEREN and he would just crack up at how she blushed.

I want to know if Kieren considered Jem when he decided to leave the world forever. I want to know if he sat with that knife in his hands, turning it over and over, weighing his options, looking at the inscription on the wall, and if it crossed his mind that he would be leaving Jem, or if he was just so wrecked by everything else happening to him and around him that she couldn’t measure up. I know that she was the one element of his life he was looking forward to seeing again when he came back.

And just… geezus. Watching Kieren’s face fall when she rejects him destroys me in so many beautiful ways. Watching the way she cannot handle him, and watching him bend in order to interact with her - apologizing, wearing his coverup, wearing his contacts, making every effort to be who she expects him to be instead of who he IS…

And to see her struggle with accepting him and not accepting him, getting lost along the way. The way he says “will you please just look at me” when he believes he is going to get carted off to Norfolk as a noncompliant, never to see her again… there is so little in this new life that is capable of breaking Kieren, and losing Jem a second time is one of them.

And then she doesn’t shoot him. She takes his word over Gary’s. And when he asks her, in the scene this cap is from, what she wants to do, and she says she thinks she needs help, he just accepts that. He agrees to help her to get help. He is her big brother and he loves her unconditionally, and she is finally learning everything that means, and how to return that to him- something Kieren desperately needed once upon a time, and I think that need never truly went away.

KIEREN AND JEM. I LOVE THEM SO MUCH. CAN THEY PLEASE BE HAPPY SIBLINGS FOREVER NOW?? *sobs* I just need to see them sort themselves out and become this strong, unified duo of badass siblingry… Jem kicking ass and Kieren taking names. This is what must happen in Series 3.

 

* * *

 

 

"On the Walker family in S2"

Anonymous asked: Was I the only one who felt disappointed in the Walker's (not Kieren) in series 2? I know they were seriously misinformed about the institution and the situation as a whole but I mean, come on this was their son/brother we're talking about. In the end they knew better, which I loved. The fact that Steve was afraid of him but risked his life to bring him back. That Steve and Jem being there made Kieren fight that much harder. The last few episodes I was just waiting for Kieren to lash out in pain

I was very disappointed in Kieren’s family through most of S2, as well. I understand some of what they were going through that caused them to act the way they did (fear is a very powerful force, after all), but I don’t think their fear excuses their actions.

I’m very glad that they did come ‘round eventually, because I think it’s going to be important for Kieren to have that sort of support network in S3. There will be enough outside conflict that having his family in conflict with him would be too much. As Shirley said to Sue, he will be lucky to have them in his corner.

It’s funny that you mention waiting for Kieren to lash out in pain, but I think it’s such a VITAL part of his characterization that he doesn’t. The spent the whole first and second series building Kieren as this gentle pacifist, and not just someone who believes those ideals, but who literally lives by them at every turn. It really says something that, even when backed into the worst corner imaginable (being dosed unwillingly with Blue Oblivion, facing going rabid and hurting someone even though it would be against his will and out of his control), he still puts every effort into keeping everyone safe, both by fighting tooth and nail against the drug and by trying to secure himself to the grate so he couldn’t get to anyone to hurt them. Kieren is so, so amazingly, thoroughly /good/, and I think that his family is really only just starting to see that as truth  _no matter if he is living or undead_.

Because, remember, Steve was actually  _scared_  of Kieren at one point, stepping back when Kieren stepped forward. That’s the sort of fear that one has when they aren’t sure if the other person is dangerous, if the other person will hurt them. Watching Kieren fight the drug (which, being under the influence of the drug would be a perfect excuse to hurt someone if that’s what Kieren wanted) I think really drove that home for Steve.

I also think that Jem was dealing with enough of her own shit in S2 that Kieren was, unfortunately for him, getting put after herself. I think she was afraid to go to him, maybe because she was afraid of what he would think, maybe because she thought she could (or should be able to) handle it on her own. She puts her faith in the wrong people (fuck you, Gary) and ends up in a bad place that really has little to do with Kieren. But I think that, watching Kieren fight against the drug (which he wouldn’t do if he took it himself) and hearing the first words out of his mouth be “Did I hurt anyone?” really grounded Jem in reality. Of all the people in her life, Kieren’s been the most honest, earnest, and caring one, and I’m pretty sure that’s why she chooses his word over Gary’s in the end, why she chooses to confide in him in the end.

As disappointed as I was in the Walker family’s choices through a lot of S2, I also think that they were very human choices, and I’m really, really grateful to have gotten a chance to watch them work through it together.

 

**PART 2** : [unlikelyandfantastic](http://unlikelyandfantastic.tumblr.com/) asked: Any thoughts on Kieren's family, particularly in the second half of series 2? They bothered me quite a bit, even Jem although I have a lot of sympathy for what Jem was going through and trying to navigate - there was no consistency for Kieren, one minute they are behind him, the next they refuse to acknowledge him and are willing to have him institutionalized for something they've just assume he's done, the next he's done no wrong?

Well, I just answered a little about how I feel about Jem and Kieren. As for the others… whew. It really was a roller coaster with them, but I don’t think much, if any, of it was particularly outside of the human spectrum of reaction.

A LOT of what we see with Kieren and his father stems from the “it’s okay if you’re like x, as long as I can’t tell” and that’s a REALLY COMMON thing for humans to do in real life. “I don’t care if you’re gay as long as you don’t hit on me” “I don’t care if you’re [insert race here] since you don’t act like it” “I’m okay with you having [insert psychological issue here], since you act normally.” For Kieren’s father (and Jem), they both experience a level of “It’s okay if you’re undead, as long as you wear coverup/contacts and don’t remind us in any way.”

And that’s not fair, because Kieren IS undead, and there’s not anything inherently wrong with that. There’s no reason he should have to hide it, and the only reason he DOES is out of some kind of misplaced courtesy to the living so that they don’t treat him like shit, and that’s wrong. They shouldn’t treat him poorly because they are uncomfortable or afraid.

So, I think what we’re seeing is Kieren taking steps toward NOT hiding, and his family is reacting to that (badly). He starts hanging out with people who have been known to have “radical” beliefs (and as unhelpful as it is for ULA members to do things like take Blue Oblivion and slaughter a tram full of people, SOME of their ideals have good intentions, like trying to get the undead to have confidence, to not let the living shame or control or use them, etc), people like Amy and Simon who never wear their mousse or contacts, and are frightening to Kieren’s father because they represent the unknown. And the unknown took Kieren from him the first time ‘round.

I think also that Kieren’s father was laboring under the delusion that Kieren had been captured before he did any harm, and having that shattered when Kieren talks so openly about ripping people apart and eating them during the Rising, it shakes Steve. Kieren-his-son was, by Jem’s admission in S1 and by Kieren’s own actions, a  _gentle_  creature, someone who would not hurt people, who would always advocate for a peaceful solution. Fitting that person into the mold of a rabid zombie that kills and consumes people has got to create a lot of cognitive dissonance and lbr, humans handle cognitive dissonance really terribly. Amazingly terribly. Steve just wasn’t an exception to that. He wanted to continue believing that Kieren was a normal, harmless, living human, and Kieren refused to back down and agree to keep pretending, and that put them in a position to butt heads, and Kieren’s father was, unfortunately, the one in a position of power.

What we see, at the end, is Steve seeing Kieren fighting the Blue Oblivion. This is a moment when it’s clear (to Steve) that his gentle, amazing boy is still there, and that if Kieren’s willing to fight to be himself, Steve can do nothing else but fight to let him. I think that’s why he goes to Kieren; because Kieren was fighting so hard, and sometimes it just takes one more reason to fight that little bit more that brings about the win.

Kieren’s mother is a completely different sort of mess. Just like when Kieren died, she is in the middle of a bad family situation. She wants to stand up for Kieren but that means standing up to Steve. If we recall from season 1, she talks in therapy about how Steve closed up and stopped being the person that he was before and she’s finally seeing him loosen up and become the guy she fell in love with way back when, and facing losing him again in remotely the same manner has got to be a nasty prospect.

When you get right down to it, she lost both of them once already, and she doesn’t want to be the one to take a stand and lose one of them again. She KNOWS that sending Kieren to the treatment facility is  _wrong_. She knows that.

What she doesn’t know is what happens to Kieren if they don’t; is his sudden stubborn rebellion temporary? Is he changing because he’s a growing person or because his medication is doing strange things to him? If they send him off and get a professional opinion that he’s fine, then she can keep both Steve and Kieren. If they send Kieren off and get a professional opinion that he ISN’T fine, then she was validated in sending him off to have his treatment altered so that she can keep him afterward.

There’s a quote that goes something like “sometimes the only thing evil needs to succeed is for good people to do nothing” and that is unfortunately what Sue is experiencing; bad things are happening or are about to happen to her son, and she is choosing to do nothing. It is her arc in the story to learn that this is not enough, that if she wants to protect who and what she loves, action IS needed.

Add it all together and, yeah, things suck for Kieren being caught in the middle of all these internal crises that his family are having. But, like I said in the earlier ask with Jem… sometimes breaking is what is needed to heal properly.

 

* * *

 

 

"Why did Sue and Steve name their children Jemima and Kieren?"

Anonymous asked: Hello, I'd like to ask you what do you think why Steve and Sue gave so unusual names to their children? I mean, Kieren and Jemima? Seems very exotic in a small town like Roarton, and somehow the name choices doesn't fit the personality or the lifestyle of the Walker parents. Thanks!

Well, Jemima is an English name (Hebrew if I recall) meaning “Dove” or “Warm” and I’m not sure it’s that unusual of a name, especially considering they call her Jem (to be honest the first time I watched it I thought they were saying Jen until I heard her full name).

Jemima is a biblical name as well, from the Old Testament. Curiously, she was the oldest of Job’s three daughters and her youngest sister was named Keren. Yes, Keren, not Kieren- her full name was Keren-happuch. So there’s a [remote] possibility that Steve and Sue had this in mind when they named Kieren and Jem, though I qualify with “remote” because Kieren was born first (and because I don’t know the actual bible story that goes along with them). Here’s the [Wikipedia entry about the biblical Jemima](https://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FJemima_%28Bible%29&t=ZGYwYTYyMWVmMTE1MDVjMjk1MzMxYzU1MmM2ZWZjNWExNDE3NzY1MCx6Umc2b3VwQw%3D%3D&b=t%3ApDrE-1Xyq8b_UVljyHdNpQ&p=http%3A%2F%2Fkedreeva.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F100701683223%2Fhello-id-like-to-ask-you-what-do-you-think-why&m=0) if you’re interested.

As for Kieren as a name on its own, I’m afraid I don’t have a reasonable explanation based in canon for why Steve and Sue would name him this. It’s derived from the Irish “Ciar” meaning “black” or “dark” and can be spelled a number of ways (masculine versions including Ciaran, Kieran, Kieron…. feminine versions including Ciara, Kiera).

I’m afraid that, unless we get a third season that can tell us more about Sue and Steve’s pasts, there’s no good canon explanation for why they would give these names to their children, especially Kieren’s name.

Outside of canon, I can 100% tell you the writers/creator wanted Kieren’s name to mean zombie. They literally named him “dark walker” in namespeak. Which is actually quite ironic because he is doing his best to NOT be a zombie anymore.  Along the same vein, you have Jem, whose name is also highly ironic- Jemima meaning “dove,” a creature who generally symbolizes peace and purity while Jem is anything but.

**RELATED RESPONSE ADDITIONS/QUOTES** : 

[iratequeen](http://iratequeen.tumblr.com/) replied:[  
](http://kedreeva.tumblr.com/post/100701683223/hello-id-like-to-ask-you-what-do-you-think-why-steve)

> See also: [Jemima Puddleduck](https://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FThe_Tale_of_Jemima_Puddle-Duck&t=ZTJhMTgxZjUzYjM3MjM3ZGI0M2MzOGFmY2M3N2EzNDFiODVmYTgyNCx6Umc2b3VwQw%3D%3D&b=t%3ApDrE-1Xyq8b_UVljyHdNpQ&p=http%3A%2F%2Fkedreeva.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F100701683223%2Fhello-id-like-to-ask-you-what-do-you-think-why&m=0) from Beatrice Potter which lead to a lot of kids being called Jemima around here. Kieren is also a really popular name where I live (small, rural town in the UK), although I’ve only ever encountered it spelt “Kieran”.

[zombug](http://tmblr.co/moWtVWqk_bFiQDC6gNx_Z0g) asked:

> There’s also Saint Kieran the Younger (one of the 12 apostles of Ireland I think), whose father was a carpenter and a chariot maker (Kieren’s dad, Steve, works as an Engineer at the train station). Saint Kieran was also known for his generosity, if that supports my theory at all.

 

* * *

 

 

"On the awkward pause after Simon asked how Sue and Steve met"

[brominelab](http://brominelab.tumblr.com/) asked: Hiya! So, in the scene where Kieren brings Simon home and introduce him to his parents, Simon ask's Steve how he and Sue meet. When he does, there's this awkward silence almost as if it's a a taboo subject. I'm not sure if I misinterpreted the scene or what but I just wanted to ask what your opinion on the scene is?

Hello!

In that scene, there is an awkward silence because it IS a sort of taboo subject. Just like Kieren, Sue was set to kill herself [over a boy], but she met Kieren’s father when she walked into the chemist (drug store, think CVS or Riteaid or similar stores) where he was employed. Instead of selling her the chemicals she wanted to buy to end her life, he made her a cup and tea and talked to her through the night, making her smile, until she was feeling better.

Sue has only just told this story to Kieren in season 1, after feeling she had to make that connection to him in order to keep him from killing himself again. It’s not the sort of story you tell to your kid’s brand new friend (especially if that friend is, as Simon is, already dead), so they opt to go for a partial truth- work. Because she did  _technically_  meet Steve at his work.

The great thing is that we, as viewers, have no idea if either Sue or Kieren let on to Steve that Sue told Kieren anything about the actual real way they met. So in addition to it being an awkward subject they won’t tell Simon, it’s awkward because Steve may not know that Kieren knows, either. Then there’s Kieren, who knows but may be aware his father doesn’t know he knows, and Sue, who knows Kieren knows but also knows they didn’t tell Steve that Kieren knows.

And then there’s Simon who doesn’t know anything except that he had expected this would be an easy and charming question and it absolutely is not for this family!

 **RELATED ASK** : [myrinthinks](http://myrinthinks.tumblr.com/) replied to your [post](http://kedreeva.tumblr.com/post/100704576413/hiya-so-in-the-scene-where-kieren-brings-simon-home):[  
](http://kedreeva.tumblr.com/post/100704576413/hiya-so-in-the-scene-where-kieren-brings-simon-home)

> I always feel they could have handled it without letting it be so hyper awkward, though. I understand that it’s a painful memory but it would have been easy to say “Steve worked at a pharmacy where I bought something”, satisfying everyone.

Maybe, but considering that I’m pretty sure they are not good in general at handling interpersonal relationships (re: Kieren felt isolated enough to kill himself, Jem clearly hasn’t worked out her issues with them, Steve has major communication issues, etc) and the fact that the family as a whole has been trying to be more open/honest (how many times previous to this lunch did Steve blurt out his feelings/thoughts in total honesty when he shouldn’t have), I don’t think that would have occurred to them.

In addition, there’s no way to tell how triggering that particular memory may be- maybe it wouldn’t have been prior to Kieren killing himself, but they had a child who was in a similar position to Sue and they were unable to (willing or not) be there for him well enough to save him like Sue was saved. Like Kieren, when Steve suggested that Kieren hadn’t killed anyone during the Rising, it’s entirely possible that they both choked on all the memories that question may have brought up.


	7. On Rick and Rick/Kieren

"Why I am uncomfortable about Rick/Kieren"

Anonymous asked: "A part of me wishes I liked Rick more" OMG you're the only one I know who actually feels that way, too! And I can't actually explain *why* I feel that way; his situation is horrible and *very* realistic, his story was superbly well done and I can perfectly understand his motivations but I'm still kind of uncomfortable with him?

Well, I know you and I aren’t alone, because I’ve had this conversation several times in private. I wasn’t entirely honest when I said I had no idea why I felt that way about him, because I do know, and it’s because he’s violent, and he treated Kieren badly.

When he finds out Kieren is dead, his first gut reaction is to shoot the hell out of that target. When he talks to Kieren about why Kieren is undead, he flies into this short, violent rage where he beats on the dashboard of the car- and judging by the way Kieren assumes the slightly-hunched “just wait until it’s over” posture when that occurs, this isn’t the first time Rick’s reacted like that to something. I hate that. I just hate it, right down to the very core of my being, I hate that reaction and I’m 100% glad Kieren is nowhere near it anymore, especially as it was coming from someone he loved and should have been able to trust to be peaceful around him. I hate thinking about how things might have gone if Rick had lived; I hate thinking that this sort of unreasonable rage might have ever, ever been turned on Kieren someday, but I do think that, and I am incredibly over protective of Kieren Walker.

At the pub, when Gary makes jokes directed at Kieren that are meant to be degrading, Rick just fucking laughs along with them. He doesn’t stand up for Kieren even though he could have. One “cut it out, Gary.” would have been enough to shoot Gary, who is still uncertain about where he is supposed to stand with Bill and Rick right now, down and keep him from teasing Kieren. But no. Rick laughs, and there’s no surprise on Kieren’s face when he does so, which tells me  _that’s typical_.

And I’m sorry, I don’t care how bad of a situation he was in with his father, leaving without telling Kieren he was going, when he had to have known for weeks, is unacceptable to me. He flat-out made a decision about what Kieren could and could not handle, what Kieren did or did not feel, without ever asking. That was both selfish and wrong of him to do. Yeah, that conversation sucks, having to tell someone bad news sucks, I get it, but you fucking do it if you care about them. You don’t abandon them without a word and you  _definitely_  don’t do it “for their own good,” which is basically what Rick’s shitty excuse amounted to.

And I get it, I do- I get that he came from a bad situation (a terrible situation, one I would never wish upon anyone), was raised in a bad situation. I get that his father was shitty (unimaginably shitty, and I hate Bill the most out of everyone on the show), and he was scared of his father and conflicted about what to do, and raised to believe things that were shitty, and I feel bad for that, I do.

But there’s a difference between having an understandable past and trying to excuse your current shitty behavior. Yes, I understand his past and feel bad that those things happened to him. No, I do not think it excuses some of his behavior.

 

* * *

 

 

"On Rick and Kieren never having kissed"

Anonymous asked: You mentioned in another ask that the creator of In the Flesh had stated Kieran and Rick never kissed. I was wondering if you had a source for that? I thought Rick or Kieran had mentioned getting drunk and having sex the night before Rick enlisted, but I might have totally misheard that bit.

I stated the creator didn’t think they had ever kissed (and additionally did not state that he said they might have in the car if they hadn’t been interrupted by the radio).

What’s particularly interesting is that I had assumed, by what I saw on screen in their interactions, that this was true, and I was surprised to find out others did not think this was true when they watched it. [greenbergsays](http://tmblr.co/mGpDMywraA-VDrJJRzOx8wA)and I actually had a long discussion after she had a different long discussion about this, wherein she reminded me that she had been told that in British English, “fool around” is a phrase used namely for physical intimacy, whereas “mess around” is something one does with friends ([Others have said differently](http://kedreeva.tumblr.com/post/91783587883/re-rick-kieren-from-the-context-i-absolutely-assumed)). In the car scene, Kieren says they drank a bottle of something, smoked a couple of fags, messed around, and then Rick said ‘see you tomorrow’ and disappeared forever.

Anyway, [here’s the link to the interview](https://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.denofgeek.com%2Ftv%2Fin-the-flesh%2F30824%2Fdominic-mitchell-interview-whats-next-for-in-the-flesh&t=ZTg2NGQwZjM4YjYxNmNlMDFmNGRjMzZmZDJhYmE4MzlhNGJiMzVmYyxvOW12ejgwNA%3D%3D&b=t%3ApDrE-1Xyq8b_UVljyHdNpQ&p=http%3A%2F%2Fkedreeva.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F91769784088%2Fyou-mentioned-in-another-ask-that-the-creator-of&m=0) if you would like to read for yourself. The question you’re looking for is toward the bottom.

 **RELATED ASK** : [towonderland72](http://towonderland72.tumblr.com/) asked: Re: Rick/Kieren, from the context I absolutely assumed that the two of them had hooked up (kissed, at least) the night before Rick left, probably for the first and last time, then Rick left before they could talk about it. I'm English, and don't actually agree with the idea that 'in British English, “fool around” is a phrase used namely for physical intimacy, whereas “mess around” is something one does with friends'. I've never actually heard anyone in my generation say 'fool around' out loud.

Interesting! Would you say that “mess around” is also, then, used as a phrase which implies physical intimacy? I’m very curious about language use and differences, so I very much appreciate input on these sorts of things!

I think I gathered nothing had happened from that conversation in particular by the very “casual” way Kieren speaks of it. I mean, that whole conversation is really heavy (REALLY heavy) but the way he slings that sentence together with no special emphasis on any one part (which, had it been their “first time”, I would think would merit at least a little stress on the phrase, or elaboration in the reminder) says to me that it was a night like any other night, and that - at the time - Kieren had been left with no indication that anything was amiss or different. The way that Rick says he was “trying to make it easier” on Kieren suggested (to me, at least) that he wouldn’t have pressed for a first time in that moment, if only for the very reason Kieren states: “Easier on YOU, you mean.”

 **RELATED ASK (+Siren)** : Anonymous asked: First, I want to say how interesting it is to read your thoughts on In the Flesh and how refreshing (*coughs* teen wolf) it is that the show runner has a bible. It seems I missed quite a lot in my first viewing of the show? I didn't know that Rick and Kieren never kissed or that it was proven the Kieren wasn't the first? Also, you offer such great insight to Siren, do you think Kieren would ever leave Simon or do you think they'll get to equal amounts of love, like Kieren's parents?

Re: Rick and Kieren not kissing and Amy being First Risen- both of those things were heavily implied in the show, but neither was expressly said (much as a lot of things are never expressly said on screen, they like to show not tell, which I can really appreciate). The reasons I, personally, figured Rick and Kieren had never hooked up are numerous and lengthy, but the reasons I know Amy is the first and not Kieren are simply because 1) she came back to life first, and 2) the two workers from the drug company came looking for Amy’s unusual test results, implying there was something special about her.

However, there’s no reason to take my word for any of it! [The creator was asked about these things in an interview](https://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.denofgeek.com%2Ftv%2Fin-the-flesh%2F30824%2Fdominic-mitchell-interview-whats-next-for-in-the-flesh&t=NTVkNTM5ZTdjODQxZjU0ZGQ2M2IwMDRkNzA5OTJmZjVkZDRkNjAzYSxlY1BtTGZ4ZA%3D%3D&b=t%3ApDrE-1Xyq8b_UVljyHdNpQ&p=http%3A%2F%2Fkedreeva.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F92379645683%2Ffirst-i-want-to-say-how-interesting-it-is-to-read&m=0) and, refreshingly (*coughs* teen wolf), the creator had no problems answering questions with good, solid, no-nonsense answers. I would highly recommend reading through the whole interview, and rewatching the series with all the new info. It’s all THERE, just in a show-not-tell capacity, imo.

As to your Siren question, I’m not 100% sure that Kieren loving MORE is really the solution, and I’m very certain that Kieren loving Simon to the same level that Simon currently loves Kieren is not healthy. You’re right in that it would be nice for them to find an equality (practically a necessity at this point), but that equality isn’t reached by Kieren climbing to where Simon is. I think they’re going to have to meet in the middle here.

I’m sure that’s slightly confusing, but what I mean is that Simon has currently got Kieren on this  _pedestal_  so to speak. Simon has that sort of personality where he throws himself, body and soul, into the things that he does (something which I personally think he’s always done, but for different reasons). He is in a place where he thinks that he needs someone to follow (which was the ULA before) and… I don’t know “give himself to” isn’t really quite right, but that’s the end result. Simon needs some space to take care of Simon, and to learn how to be a person on his own, find his own values and learn to make his own decisions about his life. Switching from existing for the ULA cult to existing for Kieren… it’s not an improvement. It’s a side step.

What I’m really hoping for is for Kieren to give him that space without letting Simon get lost. There would be a really perfect opportunity for this if Simon tells Kieren about his mission to kill him. Kieren could take a step back then and lay it out for Simon that Simon needs to figure out where he stands when there’s no one telling him what to do. That’s a lot to put on Kieren (and Simon, at this point), but I think that would also 1) allow Simon the space he needs without losing support and 2) allow Kieren a chance to fall a little more in love with who Simon really is; that sweet, confident guy who recited poetry to him in the graveyard.

 

 **PART 2 (Kieren's first kiss is Simon?)** : Anonymous asked: Glad you posted that answer about RIck and Kieren not kissing, because I had thought the opposite. When Kieren said that had messed or fooled around (can't remember which one he uses), I had assumed that meant kissing or "making out"... which feaked Rick out and thus he enlisted... though I guess it's not a major point until you consider that Kieren's passionate kiss with Simon was his first (presumably).

The thing about Rick “enlisting” is that he had to have done it a good amount of time in advance of that last night. Days at least, probably more like weeks. So, like, Rick  _knew_. He knew he was leaving and the one respectable thing I think he did in that entire debacle was to NOT get Kieren further invested by kissing him for the first time that last night. I mean, obviously it was too late, Kieren was literally invested to the end, as they had spent 4 years dancing around it before they died, but I worry how much worse their return to life would have gone, and how much worse Kieren would have taken Rick’s subsequent second-loss if they had been involved physically on a more intimate level.

 

Outside of that, yeah… I’m 100% there for Simon being Kieren’s first kiss.

 

I’m also 100% there, on a separate note, for believing that Simon (given his very dark world view, depression, and drug use) may not have had a serious relationship with anyone. What would be the point if they were all just waiting for their “bodies to give out and sink back into the darkness” or whatever hilariously dramatic thing he said to Kieren at the fence (I cannot keep a straight face when he says that line, it reminds me of Katniss saying “the soup is so salty it reminds me of my tears” like geezus I can’t….. pull it together you two)? So I’d totally believe, now that he doesn’t feel that way, that he knows he has forever basically and that his life can have meaning, that this was Simon’s first good attempt at a meaningful, lasting relationship.

 

**RELATED ASK** : Anonymous asked: Agree with your statement that this is likely the first serious go at a relationship for Simon... he almost comes across as a creeper when he tries to connect or come on to Kieren... but then I have to remember that his entire previous life was self-medicating his deep depression and any previous encounters were likely drug-hazed and brief.

I think a LOT of the “creeper” vibe comes from Simon’s intentions changing as he gets to know Kieren.

When he first arrived, he knew of Kieren only through the stories Amy would have told about him, and Amy didn’t know Kieren for very long before she left. She probably told stories of the golden-hearted boy with loneliness issues and an inability to be himself for all the layers the living press upon him to make him fit in. Exactly the sort of person Simon would love to have brought into the group…

And the second Kieren finds out he’s part of the ULA - and not just a small part, one of the 12 disciples - Kieren balks and becomes 100% unimpressed with Simon, and I honestly don’t think Simon was expecting that. He’s used to being impressive to the other undead. He’s a disciple, dammit. A leader. He has a flock. The Prophet (who in Simon’s mind is SUCH a Great Man, the man who SAVED him from a terrible place)  _chose_  Simon.

And Kieren just gives him that  _look_  and says “Seriously?” and is not impressed by any of it.

And I think Simon’s 1) not used to acting like a “normal” person because he’s never felt like he was “normal” in his first life and 2) he’s spent the majority of his second life acting as what amounts to a shepherd to the other undead. So I think he’s trying to sort out how to act around Kieren. And it comes off creepy because he’s put out and fascinated and confused and in love all at once, and it’s all just so INTENSE.

Gosh I love Intense!Simon.

 

* * *

 

 "On Rick returning, re: Kieren/Simon"

Anonymous asked: _I don't even remember which fandom I followed you for but I finished ITF last night and all of a sudden like 95% of the people I follow post ITF and Sieren!?! IT'S GREAT!! I'm so emotional over the boys. I love that while Simon fell harder for Kieren, it's always Kieren who initiates their kisses, it's how we know that this isn't a one-sided relationship. I really think they could be great. That they could even work past Simon almost killing him when Kieren eventually finds out. I actually think Kieren won’t be too bothered by it because Simon risked his life to protect him, is STILL risking his life. And the fact that Simon already knows about Rick, knows not to push Kieren too hard. I don’t think Kieren will be used to having everyone know about his relationship because Rick was so conflicted over himself. It’s going to be amazing to watch them grow. But I have worries too. What if Rick comes back? What if they kill Simon? I’M JUST SO HAPPY ABOUT ITF_

Yeah there are a lot of people coming over to ITF from TW, so that’s probably where your dashboard conversion is coming from. Hopefully we can all band together and get the show a third season!!

Couldn’t be more in love with these boys if I tried, myself :) I think Kieren will experience an amount of anger at Simon about accepting the mission to kill Kieren, even if he didn’t do it, but I’ve got my fingers crossed that he uses the events more as “You /have/ to be open with me, Simon, that’s the only way this - whatever we might have - is going to work.” Because really, I don’t think Kieren will do it again, everything with Rick and the hiding and the lying and how Rick /didn’t tell/ him that he was leaving. I wouldn’t blame him for not wanting to do that again. And I think that Simon will understand that, and I think watching that healthy evolution will be really, really nice.

I, ah, I don’t think Rick will come back, but I’m 100% sure they will be hunting Simon. I need him to live, though, and I think that he will because of the story that Kieren’s mother told him in the cave after Rick’s death, about how she lost someone, but in the wake of that loss came the person she has stayed with ever since. In the wake of Rick’s death came Simon, and that’s a pretty straightforward narrative promise to the viewer, imo.

 

* * *

 

 

"On Kieren in the truck with Rick"

I have thought a lot about this moment, and I’m extremely glad I wasn’t the only one uncomfortable with the possibility that Kieren's words may have been manipulative to some degree. However, my conclusion is that Kieren’s words say a thing, but the words themselves are semi-irrelevant to what he means.

Kieren's  _words_  say “When you died, everything turned to shit. Life didn’t mean anything anymore.” and “I didn’t have much without you.” and the rest of it.

While his tone and eyes are just screaming why did you leave when I loved you so much? I broke when you left, and there wasn’t anyone to pick up the pieces, and I didn’t know how to put myself back together alone. "You didn’t even leave a note” doesn’t apply only to Kieren… Rick left with no warning and no communication, and I can’t help but think that Kieren’s “I kept us going, in my head” was really “the idea that you would come back was what kept me going” and then even that was stripped away when Rick died.

I think Kieren is still feeling wounded and raw and is lashing out at Rick because Rick left and Rick leaving lead to Rick dying, and Kieren is still so angry at everything they could have had being lost when that happened. If he’s blaming Rick for anything, it’s for that.

It’s for leaving and taking death rather than staying to fight for Kieren.

 

* * *

 

 

“Who wrote ‘Ren + Rick 4ever’ on the cave wall?”

Anonymous asked: hello~ i've learned that you're the person to come to when it comes to ITF headcanons, so here i am :) i was wondering who you thought was the one to write "ren + rick 4ever" on the cave wall, kieren or rick? or if they did it together? i'm kind of going with rick since i don't think kieren would refer to himself as ren, and rick calls kieren ren about 99% of the time. also i think it'd be really sweet if it were him, kinda like admitting to himself (and kieren) his own deep feelings.

Ohhh this is a good one!

I’m going to have to go with I think it would have been Kieren’s idea, but I think they would have scratched it in together. I see young Kieren as the sort to want to do something like this, the more creative, the more ‘leave a mark’ sort. He was (is) an artist, drawing and painting and creating something to leave behind, to mark where he’s been, is something I can totally see him doing or suggesting doing.

I also get the feeling he was a little more… hm… hearts-in-his-eyes, this is going to last forever and ever, we’ll-always-be-together than Rick was. I think a part of Kieren, a large part of Kieren, needed that promise. That they were going to last beyond the shitty part of life they were going through at the moment. I think Rick probably needed the same, which is why I’d guess they wrote it together, but a part of me thinks that (depending on when it was written) maybe Rick also wanted something to look back on when they weren’t together anymore.

 

* * *

 

 

"If Rick had lived, would Gary be different?"

Anonymous asked: I was thinking about your Gary post from the other day. They are my exact thoughts and feelings. I'm so invested in him as a character and don't even like him. I think he's just so human, you know? I was wondering, do you think if Rick had lived that Gary would be different? Based on the scene in the bar, they were at least friendly before Rick went off to war. I wonder if he would've grown more tolerant, like Dean with Freddie, instead of more vicious and Bill-like if he had a friend w/ PDS.

Hello! I’m glad someone else is thinking about my Gary post from the other day, because I sat around wishing I didn’t have so many feelings about Gary (while wallowing in the joy that even characters I hate I still apparently love). I do think it’s because he’s human, yes! For me, personally, I also feel like Gary did… well, in the beginning anyway, did exactly what I would have done; fought back, fought for survival, protected the people he cared for, forged friendships out of shared trauma, etc.

As for Rick and Gary, hmmmm. I have a lot of mixed feelings, because I mostly believe that Gary wasn’t so much being friendly with Rick in the second (third? gosh I just watched them this morning, you’d think I could remember, but it all blurs together into one awesome story) ep where they are in the bar together as it was Gary following Bill’s lead. Bill was treating Rick as though he were absolutely nothing less than the same human being that left for service four years prior, and Gary follows that lead.

What Bill is NOT doing, is treating Kieren as though Kieren were human, and Gary also follows that lead. It doesn’t matter that Rick cares for Kieren, Gary still says degrading-intentioned things to him. I feel like if Gary were actually friends with Rick, he would at least be civil to Kieren.

What’s really, really interesting is actually what happens in the woods, when Gary is forced to take a side in killing the two rabid undead they have captured. Bill (the person Gary is taking cues from) gives the decision (the power) to Rick (asking what he thinks they should do) and Rick (acting as impromptu commanding officer in that moment) backs down to Kieren’s will (giving Kieren the power). Bill’s gun jams, leaving him unable to take back the decision (the power), and in that moment is when Kieren asks for a vote (dividing up the power amongst everyone) on whether or not to turn the rabids over to the civilians. Majority vote rules (over Bill’s objections I’m sure) and they haul the rabids back to town alive and “intact.”

Fast forward to the next episode, when Bill and Rick are unpacking the truck, and Bill snaps at Rick that his “insubordination” will spread. When I first watched it, I thought this was an awfully big exaggeration to make, but looking back, I don’t think it was. I think that, in order to have Rick in his life, Bill was going to have to give up an amount of power (especially after Rick stood up to him and said basically that he wasn’t going to let Bill push him around) to Rick.

Now, if Bill had been slightly less psychotic, or Rick had been a little faster on the uptake, Rick might have survived the moment where he took a stand for himself and for Kieren. And if that had been the case, I think there’s a good chance that what Kieren said in the car would have taken root with Rick- that he doesn’t HAVE to do what his dad says, not anymore. That’s heady, that’s a really heady feeling, to get out from under someone’s boot and realize you didn’t have to be there in the first place and you never have to go back. When Kieren says to Amy that he thinks Rick will change too, this is the change I think he was referring to, and I think that, in that moment, Kieren was right. Rick was literally taking a changing to take a stand as Kieren was telling that to Amy. He just never got a chance to finish changing.

So the question, then, is who would Gary side with, in this case? Bill, the guy that he’d followed through thick and thin and survived the Rising with, or the newly-arrived undead Rick (and subsequently, Kieren)?

Given who I see Gary being (after Bill is out of the picture even, because Bill died the same time as Rick, so Gary *kind of* got a choice in which path he chose), I think that he still would have followed Bill’s example, especially if following Rick (or siding with Rick anyway) meant siding with Kieren (whom Gary seems to have a lot of dislike for, though I’m sure the feeling is mutual).

And just one final note before this answer really gets away from me, I think that Gary HAD a chance to get friendlier with those who had PDS. Obviously Gary was good friends with Dean once, and Dean became good friends with Freddie. There’s no reason Gary couldn’t have made up to Dean and been friends with them both. He fancies Jem, and her brother is PDS, so there are plenty of opportunities there to form a better opinion of PDS sufferers… and Gary just… doesn’t. I honestly suspect there is a reason (re: “people died- in our arms, no less” he says to Kieren. Who did you love that died in front of you, Gary? NOT THAT I EVEN CARE.), and I’m looking forward to finding out what it was.

 


	8. On Minor Characters

"On Maxine Martin"

Anonymous asked: This is a silly question but I totally missed it -- why was Maxine Martin so interested in finding the first risen, before she actually started wanting a second rising?

I was under the impression that she was always after the First in order to start the second rising, and that when she was telling people she didn’t want a second rising, it was because she thought they would stop her if she said she wanted a second rising. Especially with how, for example, Vicar Oddie had fallen into sort of… disfavor, having only a few followers left because he kept preaching for a second rising etc.

I had originally thought that she was after the first to STOP the second rising, but that doesn’t make sense with how she brought her brother’s toy with her and was, like, talking to him/herself in her room early on.

I’m totally up for a Maxine Martin discussion night if anyone has other ideas/explanations to share.

 

 **PART 2** : [martinsparrish](http://martinsparrish.tumblr.com/) asked: I was always under the assumption that Maxine wanted a Second Rising in order to bring her brother back. But maybe I missed some stuff, in which case I think maybe her desire to find the first risen was to see what was so special about this person, why were they brought back instead of her brother. Maybe she wanted to get rid of the first risen as an act of revenge, because they got a second chance when her brother didn't. But that's just me tho XD

((+ Anon Said: I was always confused as to why Maxine Martin called Vicar "insane" for wanting the second rising when she wanted the exact same thing herself? Did she just want him out of the picture so she could control the town? What are your thoughts on her anyway? To me she just another Bill, another Vicar, condemning the undead because of the stupid believe that the first were evil and the second are good. They were all such hypocrites. I cringed during their scenes.))  
((+ Anonymous said: I was considering that theory, because of her little brother and all that, but was really thrown off by her calling Vicar Oddie insane and stuff. But it makes more sense, considering how he didn't have much support anymore, so she didn't want to be seen as on his side/supporting that cause.))

Again, I personally think that she didn’t want to align herself with him.

I don’t see Maxine as another Vicar or Bill, for one main reason.

That is because I don’t think she was acting of her own accord. I think that her father, whoever he is, had insisted that she fix what she started. When she is making her bloodied-up speech at the end, she cuts herself off while talking about her brother’s death, saying it was an accident but that they said it was her [fault]. If, indeed, her father blamed her, but was someone like Oddie or Bill who believed in a second rising, her father might have been pressuring her to come to Roarton and do something about it, especially if she was in a position of power. One theme we have seen several times now is the power a person’s parents can have over them, the sway they might hold just by withholding or granting their approval (Bill with Rick, Simon with his dad, Shirley with Philip… even Kieren and his parents have a level of this, although Kieren is much more resistant to it than anyone else in the series). I think Maxine may be another example of this.

Unlike Oddie or Bill, I think Maxine was a hugely guilt-and-shame-driven character. If we guess that she was probably within 5 years of her brother, she would have basically grown up hearing from her parents that it was  _her_ _fault_  that Danny was dead. That’s a HUGE burden to bear at any age, much less as a young adult while you are developing your view of yourself. Prior to the Rising, she would have had no way to alleviate that guilt. There was no way to bring Danny back; something happened and he died because of it, and she was probably there, might even have witnessed it. She feels responsible for “killing” him, and when an opportunity arises to potentially fix it, all she sees is an opportunity to get out from under the crushing weight of all those years of guilt and shame. She can fix it. She can bring him back, and everything will be how it was supposed to be, and her parents will love her again.

As to the difference between the first risen and second risen groups, if she believed that the first risen were evil it was only, I think, because her brother was not among them and  _surely_  if the good were going to be brought back, he would have come with them.

If she was looking for the First before she got to Roarton, my assumption would be that it was because she needed to know what was special about them. The First  _started_  all this bullshit, maybe the First could start it again. Maybe they could bring her brother back, like they brought back all those others. There was knowledge somewhere of how to make this thing happen again and include her brother this time, and she was bent on finding out that secret.

In the end, I can’t really hate Maxine. I just feel bad for her.

 

* * *

 

 

"On Dr. Russo"

Anonymous asked: What's your take on the town's doctor (I can't remember his name at this moment)? Amy said she didn't like him, but I actually had a soft spot for him. I think he really cared about the PDS patients, maybe he didn't show it the same way Shirley did, but that didn't mean he didn't care. He refused to give up Amy's info to people he didn't know, he appeared sad at Amy's death, told Kieren a fresh start was okay. He seemed like a decent guy who had trouble expressing emotion.

The thing is that, at least here, medical records are super protected and you don’t give out that information unless there’s a court order or something. Additionally, most work places will not give out contact information of employees or customers (and technically you could call Amy a customer of the doctor). I would hope that in England, it would be fairly similar, or at least that MOST people would have the basic decency not to give out sensitive information like that, especially to people who really don’t seem all that nice (wooooo does that lady give me a down-the-spine shiver). He is literally doing his unbiased job.

So, I mean, he is base-line decent human being at least, in that regard?

On the other hand, I didn’t care much for him because he’s got that super-casual sort of discrimination going. He was very dismissive of Kieren when Kieren was telling him that his contacts were bothering him, and it was Shirley who ended up asking enough questions to find out what was actually wrong. He still allows the PDS-give-back-scheme to assign him unpaid workers. He still treats the feral undead like things (“there’s an empty cupboard in the back, you can put them in there”) despite being one of the MOST qualified to know better. He still encourages Kieren to get out of town (run away from the problem) rather than making any attempt at helping to fix it so Kieren doesn’t HAVE to leave, and can be comfortable and safe right where he is. When Kieren doesn’t make it out of town, something he was clearly very much looking forward to, the doctor is again dismissive of Kieren’s feelings. He is verrrry patronizing when he visits with/treats Amy (and I’m with her, I wouldn’t go back to see him if I could get Shirley).

So I just… Russo might not be overtly against PDS sufferers, but the small ways he treats them in our view really add up to some underlying issues that I think Simon probably picked up on right away. Really makes me wonder what he was doing before the Rising, and what sort of research/study he did at Norfolk that landed him a specialty in treating the undead of Roarton.

 

* * *

 

 

"On Gary Kendall"

Anonymous asked: I love Gary because he actually resembles a person in that he is horrible but he changes and has complex emotions and is reacting to his environment. He isn't a bad facade of a character; he is very obviously a reflection of actual human beings.

The thing about Gary, for me, is that  **I love to hate Gary**.

There are characters in this world that I think are shitty characters, the sort that should not be on my screen, that serve no purpose, that are written badly, or flatly, and a lot of these are “I’m so eeevil!” characters that are there just to be evil or bad or cause problems.

**Gary is not one of those characters.**

If we had come into the storyline of  _In the Flesh_  four years earlier, Gary would be one of the heroes of the story. Gary would have been one of those young soldiers, maybe 18-19 (since I’m pretty sure he was about the same age as Rick, with how they interacted, and Bill’s commentary about them chasing the same girl(s) etc), who was forced into a war where monsters suddenly became real. Monsters that hunted you, hunted your family and your friends and the members of your community. Monsters that wore the faces of the dead and consumed the living.

Gary would have, by his own admissions, been a scared-shitless boy fighting to keep his world safe. We would have watched him take strength from Jem Walker, who was probably just as scared, who was hurting from the loss of her brother, and we would have seen them band together. We would have seen Gary scrabbling to keep his friends and comrades, Dean among them, alive and safe. We would have seen him survive terrifying situations like the one he describes over lunch to Kieren and company, situations where he nearly died and it was only the sheer amount of adrenaline and Jem’s quick thinking that saved his life.

We would see a man who gave up the tail end of his young adulthood in order to fight in what was probably one of the most traumatizing wars in the history of the world, and I don’t think he was the sort who thought there was any other way to go about it. Fighting had to be done, and he was able to do it, expected to do it, so he did it.

Now take that person, and watch him as a cure is found for the rabid state of the undead. Watch him as he learns that the monsters he killed were actually people; mothers and fathers and sisters and brothers and lovers and children. Imagine the dissonance he feels, when he sees PDS sufferers acting like humans, and sees the people around him who used to look up to him turn around and tell him what he did was wrong, when literally there was no way they could have known better. Literally so many more people would have died if the HVF hadn’t been created and had fighters like Gary in their ranks. Had the Rising gone a different  path, with no redeemed minds at the end, Gary would have done everything right back at the start.

Gary did exactly what I probably would have done, in the same situation; he fought for his own survival and for the survival of others.

Except, there ARE redeemed minds at the end of this path. The monsters DID turn out to be people, good people… but Gary cannot reconcile that in his mind. And you’re right, that’s a very human reaction to change like this.

So yes, I hate Gary. I hate him so much.

And I love every second of hating him, because I love that he gets to be a fleshed out character, too.

 

* * *

 

 

"On Shirley Wilson"

Anonymous asked: Can I say how much I love Shirley... from the start, she was just awesome? As a bonus she has Philip as a son who grows as a person and is brave when pushed and so adorkable...

Oh my gosh, don’t even get me started on Shirley, that amazing, beautiful goddess of Being A Decent Human Being.

From the outset she was nothing but genuinely accepting and nurturing of a better environment for basically everyone but especially the PDSS returning to the town. The government contacted her to ask if she wanted to help them, and I don’t think there was any hesitation. Of  _course_  she would help them. Of course. There’s no consideration for doing anything else; someone needs help that she can give, and she’s there.

When Kieren comes to the facility to request a prescription to last 6 months so he can go to France, she is there telling him that he doesn’t have to go if he doesn’t want to, that he shouldn’t have to leave unless leaving is what he WANTS, not because he’s being forced out.

When she catches Philip on her computer and he tells her that he was looking at porn, she doesn’t yell at him. She doesn’t try to shame him, or tell him to stop. She tells him to clean up after himself, and she goes to bed. She wants him to find love, to be happy, to have his life together for the day she can’t be there for him.

When she finds out Philip is with Amy, she reacts not with disgust or outrage… she reacts with pride and happiness. Her son found someone to love, and she considers Amy to be a good person, and she is just happy for them.

She is the one to stand up to Kieren’s mother and say “Good thing he’s got you to fight in his corner” because it never occurs to Shirley that Kieren’s family wouldn’t be fighting for him, standing up for him when he needs it most. There is no other option- you stand up for your kid. You just do.

I love Shirley. I just love her so much ughhhh

 

* * *

 

 

"On Charlotte"

Anonymous asked: I feel like I'm the only person who really loved the portrayal of that girl in Amy's class, the one who was meant to be her show-and-tell partner. For all the shortness of it, I thought her backstory was quite powerful. The short tie, the huge hoop earrings, and the heavy masacara just screams "chav", but the show does a good job of showing that beneath the surface is a complex individual who shouldn't be sterotyped. I love it.

I had to look up the meaning of the word “chav,” so I have learned a thing today.

I haven’t given much thought to Charlotte’s character, to be honest. I don’t like what she did to Jem, though I think it was a very, very human reaction for her to have.

It’s interesting, because she’s one of the few people we see who lost a “rabid” family member during the Rising. We see people who lost other living in attacks. We see people who lose PDS suffers (like Ken losing Maggie, or Freddie going rabid). We even see Lisa’s family who is hoping that their living daughter is now undead. But Charlotte is the first person we see who knows her father died, rose, and was killed (and knows who his killer was) instead of being fixed. There had to be plenty of rabids who belonged to families or were friends of someone… and we only get to glimpse their stories through Charlotte’s eyes, in that portion of the series.

And it’s her story, I think, that makes the whole story just a little more terrifying. Because up until that point, you can tell yourself that there are rabid zombies (nameless, faceless, threats, dangers) and there are PDS sufferers (with names and families and personalities), and that’s all the further you have to think. Now you see Charlotte talking about her father, and you go back and rewatch everything thinking “I wonder who that was? I wonder who in the world just lost someone they might’ve had a shot at getting back?”

I think on some level, Charlotte’s story is supposed to drive home the horror of what Jem and company did during the Rising, even though they couldn’t have known better, and make us question what we are willing to do /what we  _do_  do in the name of ignorance.

 

* * *

 

 

"Why did Maxine say 'you're the first and the last' to Amy?"

The term “the first and the last” is actually derived from early transcriptions of the Christian bible, wherein can be found the phrase “I am the Alpha and the Omega” (the first and last letters of the greek alphabet, respectively) as it relates to Jesus Christ (and some argue, God as well). In terms of ITF, I believe that Maxine is using this to declare Amy as the “messiah” of sorts. Due to the same way Kieren later denounces himself as such, I think it is believed that ‘the First’ is the equivalent of the messiah figure in the ULA belief set. I don’t believe it actually has anything to do with Amy literally being the first (to do or be) or the last (to do or be) so much as it has to do with what her place is within that set of beliefs, which Maxine seems to put stock in after hearing both Vicar Oddie and The Undead Prophet speak of second risings, etc. Additionally, she heard this same phrase from the Prophet, and it would have been important for Philip to repeat that exact phrase the Prophet uses in Simon’s presence in order for him to realize that Maxine was doing the same thing that he had been about to do (ostensibly under the influence of the same person, by some way), how horrible it could have turned out, how it could have been Amy he set upon like this, and that he was, in fact, correct and justified in choosing Kieren.

As to whether or not Maxine knew that Amy had come to life, my guess would be that she was close enough to hear Amy exclaim that her heart had begun to beat again. This or, by that point, Maxine had become upset enough by the second Rising not happening and her plans sort of falling apart, that her realization that she might be able to still salvage it and the overwhelming emotion that came along with that, muddled her thinking momentarily. She had a stabby device, and common sense says stabby devices go in the chest or stomach, not in the head, and before her brain caught up… she stabbed Amy. Upon seeing real, red blood, maybe her brain caught up and she kept going with what worked.


	9. General & Tags Meta

“If the undead are in danger of becoming rabid and thus actually dangerous, does it negate the message of treating the minority groups the PDS suffers represent well?”

[captainfraktard](http://captainfraktard.tumblr.com/) asked: Dear Ms. Reeva, I thought it was great how ITF uses the whole zombie thing as a stand-in for the treatment of minorities. The show gets so much right in its portrayal of the treatment of nonhegemonic people. But it struck me as a bit odd how, ultimately, it shows how this minority stand-in absolutely does need to be regulated and proves actually dangerous to people unless treated with a government-concocted 'cure'. Does that not argue AGAINST fair treatment and acceptance? Kind regards, -m-

Hi there! You can call me Ked :)

I have thought about this on several occasions, and I don’t really have a good answer for it, and I suspect that my inability to reach a conclusion stems from two things; one, that the show hasn’t been given enough time to get its paws muddy over this particular subject and two because I get wound up in circles over there being two groups of people in the show; the treated and untreated undead.

On the one hand, there are the undead that are not being treated with anything; those ‘rabid’ undead. I really think “feral” might be a more accurate term. Rabid is a term given to them by the living in the show, which implies that they are somehow ill when in fact they are not ill. Feral, on the other hand, means “in a wild state, especially after having escaped domestication” which is, I think, exactly what they return to being without the “domestication” of the Neurotriptyline. Member of this group are considered dangerous because they have done dangerous things- they killed and ate people(s brains). So, I suppose arguments could be made that the feral undead cannot be a part of domestic society because by their very nature they are not domestic. I can’t say they aren’t intelligent, because we see that they recognize their own, and Kieren tells us he hunted with another undead (Amy), so there is SOMEthing there (I personally suspect that they ARE intelligent, and that in that state they do not see the living as intelligent… the living are just prey to a feral predator’s mind).

On the other hand, we have the treated undead, and this is where the problem comes in. Because this group /overlaps/ the other group, in that members of this group can revert to being members of the feral group. This is something that, in our world, doesn’t happen. We do not revert to feral, brain-eating hunters of other humans if we are allowed to openly be our race or sexuality or gender etc without regulation. Therein lies the break between reality and fantasy, where we have to think for ourselves that although there is a clear difference between the undead and real life oppressed groups, there are also enough similarities for the show to tell us some behaviors are not appropriate.

All that being said, if we back way the heck up to the start of this (I keep losing track of what I’m saying, so I apologize if this is a little disjointed), there are two kinds of medication going on here; one is a government issued NTL and one is a homemade NTL, and both appear to work equally well (and the creator said that actually the homemade stuff works slightly better, so there’s that).

There’s also wayyyyy more regulation going on than just the administration of a drug that keeps feral undead in a domesticated state of being… and all of it beyond the medication is, or should be considered in the viewer’s eye to be, unnecessary. There is no reason to make PDSS wear contacts and mousse. There is no reason to implement the give back scheme. There is no reason to restrict their travel or access to jobs. There is ZERO reason that they should have to declare themselves as PDS and give any part of their medical history to any Living (“I have been administered NTL in the last 24 hours and will not enter a rabid state” IS medical history).

As a last note, I just want to add that there isn’t anything inherently  _wrong_ with needing medication to “function properly” so to speak. There are a lot of people who take medical prescriptions for all sorts of things (pain management, medical treatments, mental health treatments, etc) in order to live how they want, or closer to how they want, to live. But there IS a problem with the government (or anyone, really) deciding that anyone requiring or desiring to take those meds is less human or less citizens or less anything.

And you should ask [greenbergsays](http://tmblr.co/mGpDMywraA-VDrJJRzOx8wA) what she has to say about the medication being literal vs. metaphorical, because she has thoughts on this that might be relevant to your interests.

RELATED RESPONSE (Greenberg's response): 

Kedreeva’s just a lazy ass who didn’t want to add what I told her to her post. (Again.) :P

Also, fair warning, this is  _super meta_  and probably not at all what they intended re: the show but I thought of it while Ked and I were discussing it so here it is.

The Rising came out of nowhere. No warning, no fanfare, just people crawling out of their graves in the middle of the night. The rabid zombies also had a great chance of overthrowing humanity and basically making them extinct.

Humanity knew this and they also knew that the only way to survive, the only way to  _win_ , was to somehow control the zombies. This is where the medication comes into play. The medication not only “normalizes” them, it also gives The Living the chance to control PDS sufferers through emotional manipulation and guilt based on past actions.

So imagine the rabid zombies as minority groups - the lower class, women, people of color, lgbt, etc - and their fight for equality. They want to “over throw humanity,” they want to bring in a new era where equality just  _is_  and not something constantly being fought for.

The people in power see this and they realize that this is a fight they’ll lose unless they learn to somehow control these groups. (Trying to control what a woman does with her body, etc.)

And on top of that, you have people in day to day life who don’t know or understand oppression and/or discrimination telling these groups, “this is wrong, you are wrong, you shouldn’t be doing this. You’re taking this  _too seriously_ , it’s not as bad as you say it is. This is a fight already fought, already won.”

You have the extremist groups like the ULA who hinder more than they help the cause they claim to advocate for because their extremist actions are what people think of when they think of “equal rights for zombies.”

You have people like the waitress in the diner who are scared into submission by TPTB and follow their rules.

And then you have people like Kieren. Kieren is is still being medicated by the government but he’s slowly putting a stop to the emotional manipulation and misplaced guilt. He knows he doesn’t have the power to win the war on his own but that doesn’t mean he won’t fight at all.

And…I’m sorry, I’m kind of losing the plot here because it’s way past my bedtime and my brain is shutting down.

So I’ll just end with this. What is the worst fear for The Living?

It’s a Second Rising. It’s the idea that  _more_  rabid will rise and that the medicated will turn rabid again. That, this time, they won’t be able to gain control and the rabid will win.

The government wants you to  _think_  that regulation and government-approved medication is the only true course of action, that things will fall apart otherwise, but let me ask you:

In a society of rabid zombies, what is there except for peace?

 

* * *

 

 

"On Names"

I’m not saying you aren’t a clever little shit, Dom, but you named the main character of a zombie show Kieren Walker. Kieren-fucking-Walker. Don’t think I didn’t notice what you did there. I know Kieren means  _dark_.

You named your zombie MC  _dark walker._

_You named your zombie MC “zombie” in namespeak._

 

 

* * *

 

 

"On Shirley's gloves"

I just wanted to make a quick note about Shirley’s gloves in S1E1 of  _In the Flesh_. Steve Walker later wears similar gloves, which I take to indicate that they are the standard use gloves.

What I want to note is that the gloves are  _purple_.

I know this doesn’t mean a lot to most people, but I work in a research setting. Normal latex (a natural rubber) gloves (which are cheaper) are typically [white](https://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.firstaidglobal.com%2Fimages%2Flatex-gloves.jpg&t=MmEzYjVhOWMyYzZjNzdiZWZkMzRmZWZkZjcxZmRlNDllOTJkZWE4NCxhUnFIbkpMcw%3D%3D&b=t%3ApDrE-1Xyq8b_UVljyHdNpQ&p=http%3A%2F%2Fkedreeva.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F94768247523%2Fi-just-wanted-to-make-a-quick-note-about-shirleys&m=0) (at my facility, they are [pale green](https://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.surgicalproductsmag.com%2Fsites%2Fsurgicalproductsmag.com%2Ffiles%2Flegacyimages%2F1207%2FSpectrum-Green-Glove%255B2%255D.jpg&t=OThiZjg0ODk3NWMwOGMxODk3NGM5Y2NjMWJiYTJhZjg2ZTJiZDU1MSxhUnFIbkpMcw%3D%3D&b=t%3ApDrE-1Xyq8b_UVljyHdNpQ&p=http%3A%2F%2Fkedreeva.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F94768247523%2Fi-just-wanted-to-make-a-quick-note-about-shirleys&m=0)).

Nitrile (a synthetic rubber) gloves, on the other hand, were originally dyed blue to differentiate them from latex gloves (by sight) and to help determine if a puncture/tear has been made in the glove. The nitrile gloves at my facility are either blue or purple, but black is common for law-enforcement. More recently, both nitrile and latex come in colors, but it’s far more standard to see the original colors.

Shirley’s gloves are purple, which to me indicates that they are nitrile gloves. In fact, I would bet they are [these specific gloves](https://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spservices.co.uk%2Fitem%2FBrand_NonSterilePowderFreeNitrileGloves-Purple-Boxof100_31_0_2997_1.html&t=OWFjZDNhMjQ0NTFkNzcyYzQ3ZDZmN2RhMGUyYWJlZDI0NWUyYmQyNCxhUnFIbkpMcw%3D%3D&b=t%3ApDrE-1Xyq8b_UVljyHdNpQ&p=http%3A%2F%2Fkedreeva.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F94768247523%2Fi-just-wanted-to-make-a-quick-note-about-shirleys&m=0).

Okay but why is that important??

Because there are two main reasons for wearing nitrile instead of latex. The first is the common allergy to latex. The second is if you are working with biohazardous material and/or need punture-resistant gloves. Nitrile is a much stronger barrier and protective substance than latex.

In my personal experience, I had to switch from latex gloves to nitrile gloves because the latex was flat-out more permeable than nitrile. After working with chemicals for an hour or so, they would begin to seep through the gloves and onto my skin. This doesn’t happen with nitrile gloves, which are also resistant to many chemicals. We are also required to either double-glove our hands with latex gloves or use nitrile gloves when handling biohazardous material.

So the government in ITF, which I believe would be concerned about cost (and thus only send nitriles to those who request it specially), doesn’t bother even starting with latex gloves. They go straight for the nitrile ones which, though more expensive, are also more protective. Considering there’s no needle on the injection gun, they must not be worried about punctures (which is the main reason to use nitrile if you aren’t allergic to latex)… we have to assume they want to protect the person administering the drug from whatever ~disease~ the PDS seem to have.

 

* * *

 

 

"Where are the local police? Why are HVF/RPS running the town?"

Anonymous asked: So I got my new roommate to watch ITF and she really likes it, but she noticed something is season 2 (we just finished the first episode) where are the local police? Why is Gary/former HVF patrolling instead of local law enforcement? I'm not sure how it works over there since I live in the US (and I know you do too) but just wondering what your thoughts are since I've been enjoying all of your meta about ITF and you got me to watch in the first place. Thanks.

I also have no idea how it actually works in small towns in northern England, so if anyone from there knows better, feel free to drop me a line!

My guess is that actual Roarton that we’ve seen in the show is a part of the “Roarton Valley” area (as Maxine is MP of Roarton Valley, and I think it was Shirley that said something like “doesn’t she have any other constituents to bother” or something similar which implied there were other towns or at least areas in Roarton Valley). Here in the US, very very small town areas will often just have a sheriff or be policed only by state police, which are not located in the actual town at all. They would just be called in to deal with reports/claims/big deals.

Actually, we have what’s called “[citizen’s arrest](https://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FCitizen%27s_arrest&t=OTU1ZDdjYWRhYmZjNTczOTliOWEwNmJkYjFhYmU1ZGY0ODBkMzZlNixJUTFIOUx6aQ%3D%3D&b=t%3ApDrE-1Xyq8b_UVljyHdNpQ&p=http%3A%2F%2Fkedreeva.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F94995986698%2Fso-i-got-my-new-roommate-to-watch-itf-and-she&m=0)“ here, where a person who isn’t even in law enforcement at all may make an "arrest” of someone breaking the law if there is no law enforcement available at the time. As cool, as that is, it actually didn’t start in the US, it started in England (and is still used today, though you do not have to be a citizen, it’s just “any person arrest” there). 

Couple these things with the fact that if there WERE any actual police in the area, they may have been killed in the Rising or afterward in the line of duty, there’s a good chance that what is left is the volunteer police force that is the HVF/RPS. These would be volunteers that stepped up when they were needed and there’s been no reason to revert back to any older system. The town is regulated by it’s little council and protected by its volunteer militia force, and post-Rising I don’t think anyone higher-up sees a reason to interfere with that.

An anon adds:

> Oh, I can answer that question! In an area where there are a lot of small towns, usually there is a police station in one of the bigger towns that is responsible for the area. Because in Europe villages and towns aren’t as spread out as they are in the US and everything is a lot closer, so the same goes for hospitals too - there is usually one larger station + hospital in the biggest city/town over, not in every single little town.

 

* * *

 

 

"We aren't replacing Sterek, we're leaving a shitty show for a better one."

Today I saw a subtweet which made an attack against a Sterek shipper who had pointed out that a lot of TW fans were switching to watching ITF. The attacking party said basically that ‘Oh my, it appears that Sterek really can just be replaced with another slash couple!’

I thought I was going to leave it alone, but you know what? No. Fuck you.

Do you know WHY Teen Wolf fans, and Sterek fans in particular, are switching to  _In The Flesh_? Because it’s a better fucking show. I’m gonna tell you a thing, and you can sit there and listen to it like we did with you.

 

 _In the Flesh_  is a better show than Teen Wolf in just about every way.

When I came to Teen Wolf, I will freely admit it was because a friend of mine dragged me kicking and screaming, coaxing me by promising it had so much potential both as a show and in the possibility of seeing a slash ship go canon organically. Season 1 of TW was kind of campy, but I fell in love with Scott and Stiles and Derek and Lydia and Allison (fuck you Jackson, I loved you later). I loved what I saw they could become, if they were given the space to do so. Scott was a good kid with the drive to always try to do the right thing, but he was also a teenage boy with a lot of room to make mistakes. Stiles was his goofy, nerdy, comic-relief best friend who was going to help him make it through the horror show his life could become. Derek was the dark, powerful and absolutely lost reluctant potential ally/enemy/friend/lover who could have easily become a mentor to Scott and a source of fantastic banter (and maybe more?) with Stiles. Allison was the pretty, forbidden lover/enemy who was going to struggle with who her family was and what they wanted her to do vs. what she was learning for herself about the supernatural and werewolves. Lydia was Allison’s best friend, Queen Bee of the social world of high school only because she made herself smaller in order to do so.

Then we hit season 2 and the hunters descended and Jackson had this great storyline (which set up for all 6 of the mains to get a season’s worth of storyline, and I was so there for that), and they introduced Erica, Boyd, and Isaac (whom I fell in love with over the course of the rest of the season). Derek was drawing together a trio of misfits for his pack, his new family, and Scott was pulling together Stiles, Allison, Lydia, and hopefully Jackson (maybe even Danny, via Jackson!) to be his pack. I always expected that Scott would become an alpha in his own right, but I thought he would do it via a path widely available to werewolves (do enough leading and you become a leader).

I was dragged into what I thought would be “a stupid MTV drama show about teenage werewolves”, watched the first and second seasons (up to episode, I think, 6) in like 2 days, and subscribed to a show that I THOUGHT was going to deliver to me a group of amazing characters set up to do amazing things and come into their own with one another, characters who would learn and grow with storylines that had the potential to be progressive and fun.

What I got was Season 3 of TW. Jackson disappearing to London. Erica and Boyd being stripped from the show by death. Derek being shit on left and right. Scott becoming a mystical Super Special Alpha everyone is in awe of. Lydia being relegated to Pretty Sidekick Plot Device/Romantic Interest. Six new villains in the first half of the season, three of which were Redeemed- even though two of them had KILLED BOYD AND/OR FORCED DEREK TO KILL BOYD (and they probably killed other people too!) and one of them had killed A LOT OF PEOPLE and was a complete dick; and Scott and Derek just let him go for literally no reason. They introduced even more new people to fuck up in the second half of the story (and kept two of the villains from the previous half of the season as weird hanger-ons with no real depth and without any good reason), good and bad. They revived Kate at the end of the season after killing Allison.

I heard Isaac is leaving. I heard Danny is gone.

The timelines for the show are completely fucked up; they can’t decide when anything actually happened in the past (if you watch the remembrance/death extra video, they don’t even know what year it is on their own fucking show) and it’s so bad they can’t even decide when most of the characters were even born. We still don’t even know most of the characters’ full names, which goes hand in hand with how they pretty much ceased developing the original characters in S3 in favor of the revolving door new characters. We got about 50% more slow-motion action shots than was at all necessary, time which could have been used to see more interactions between the characters. In a very shitty attempt to keep us from guessing what was going on, all the plot information was exposition dumped on us by Jennifer at the end of S3A.

UGH. Do you see where I’m coming from here? Add all of this up to find the total amount of “done with this bullshit” for a show, and then as a bonus, top it off with a HEAPING helping of “having your chain yanked/hopes built up and dashed repeatedly about whether or not the show would ever even consider making one of its main characters something other than 100% straight straight straight.” I firmly believe, no matter how much I loved him and was excited to see him, Danny having cobbled-together random relationships - including one with the villain who, may I remind you, was sent there to use him and who KILLED A STUDENT - in the sidelines DOES NOT COUNT.

**If you’re still with me, then I want to take your hand and show you why we are flocking to _In the Flesh_  instead.**

_In the Flesh_  is a supernatural drama, much like  _Teen Wolf_. It’s set up with a small cast of characters, the main one being Kieren Walker. He reminds me a lot of Scott McCall, actually; he wants to do good, not hurt anyone, willing to get hurt in order to make that happen- and he’s still only 18, with all the astounding wisdom of being 18, and plenty of room to make mistakes. Within the first season you see him earn a goofy, exhilarating, comic-relief best friend (sorrry, “best dead friend forever”) named Amy, who is going to help him through the horror show his life could become. By season 2, you meet the dark, strong potential friend/ally/enemy/lover who tries to set himself up as a mentor for Kieren. Those are the main three, and they are surrounded by a cast of supporting characters  _that all have started to or have already gotten their own storylines_. The characters are getting fleshed out  _beautifully_ , so much so that you end up super invested in everyone that comes on screen, even the people you hate (fuck you, Gary).

The show points fingers toward a lot of issues without letting itself become an “issues” show, something which Jeff Davis said he was actively avoiding; sorry, but removing “issues” from the show doesn’t work like he thinks it does. Things like, idk, consent and mental illness are REALLY IMPORTANT things to address like a decent human being, and TW seriously failed its viewers in those and other areas (failed them so hard there are literally areas of the show people cannot watch because the issue is handled so disgustingly bad, and the creator is unrepentant with his “just don’t watch if you need to not watch” attitude). ITF brings those things into play and handles them well and still manages to look prettier and better than you, TW.

The timelines are intact. The show creator mentioned, when asked about the potential for a S3, that he had a big show bible (holy SHIT, actual WORLD BUILDING and PLANNING?) and he was excited about all of the places they could take it with what they have set up so far. They have organically developed at least four “sides” to this story (Kieren’s group, the townsfolk, Viktus, and the ULA) without needing to crash land plot or characters at random. The exposition is typically very fluid in the episodes (often done with TV or radio reports as scenes are starting or cutting off). Their actors aren’t leaving to be in other shows or hell, fleeing just to not be in this one because it’s gotten so bad.

Do you see? It isn’t Sterek that’s being replaced when we switch to  _In the Flesh_. It’s everything else, and after all that is said and done, we get a different bonus: our ITF OTP gets to be canon at the end of the day.

So, you know what? Fuck you. I’m taking Sterek with me in my heart forever, and I’m leaving for  _In the Flesh_  and you can have the shitty werewolf show that repeatedly let me (and many, many others) down and used me.

I’m going to go have a happy second life playing with zombies- I’m sorry, the  _Redeemed._

 **PART 2** : Anonymous asked: Yikes, I just saw someone complain (pretty rudely) about people comparing TW and ITF, using this ideology that you can't compare to shows, especially if they only have genre in common? I don't think they got that it's about comparing writing and content, not subject matter.

Quite frankly they are wrong, especially if the two shows do have genre in common. Discussions about characters and their personality types, background development, storyline development, their development/growth as a character, their strengths, their weaknesses- those things are not exclusive to one show or another. The quality of the writing (the words spoken, the phrases and humor used, foreshadowing or repetition used in speech) is a universal discussion across shows. The treatment of any major or minor issue brought up within a show and how the show treats and handles those issues is absolutely 100% up for discussion within and across genres.

Even ignoring those sorts of things (which I don’t think is appropriate to do),  _Teen Wolf_  and  _In the Flesh_  have a lot in common outside of just genre. Their main characters are a lot alike in base personality, and both shows have chosen quirky, odd best-friend type secondary MCs. They both deal in the supernatural, and both shows revolve around a character who has had something done to their body against their will (Scott being turned into a werewolf, Kieren being brought back to a life he chose to leave). Both are struggling to keep as many people safe as possible, often at the expense of their own safety. Both are facing groups of people who want to see them dead (Scott faces the hunters and Kieren faces the remains of the HVF and the rising influence of Viktus) because of what they are, regardless of how human their minds still are, or whether they had a choice in the matter to begin with.

Absolutely there should be discussion comparing and contrasting these two shows. Yes, one show is about werewolves and one show is about zombies… but those are covers on two books that have a lot in common on the pages in between. The difference is that one of those books is a lot better written than the other, and there are gonna be people who don’t like to hear it.

 

* * *

 

 

((Tags for 2 gifs of Simon looking at Kieren in the pub))

#Simon Monroe#In the Flesh#I fucking love that look#because he's turning it on Kieren right then#he doesn't say a goddam word this entire scene except Kieren's name#he is silently asking Kieren 'what are you going to do?'#What choice will you make Kieren Walker#whose side will you take#are you going to let them talk like that to you Kieren Walker#are you going to let them treat you like that#and more than that#Simon is telling Kieren it's his choice how much trouble is caused right now#I would bet a whole lot that if Kieren had told Simon and Amy to leave#Simon would have been disappointed in Kieren#but he would have left#I don't think he would have even argued#because this#this scene was never about challenging the locals#it was never about showing off#or equality movements#or any of that bullshit#this was Kieren's test#this was Simon's test for Kieren#This was Simon seeing how Kieren would react when he was pressed for a decision#I've told Greenberg that Simon reminds me a lot of Tobias Eaton#and this is just one more time#You think my first instinct is to protect you#Because you're small or a girl or a Stiff#but you're wrong#my first instinct is to push you until you break

 

* * *

 

 

((Tags on Simon waiting to hear from the undead prophet))

#Simon Monroe#God he looked like a little kid in this#so excited#so YOUNG#this was the Simon that left for America at 21#with stars in his eyes#thinking it would cure him#make him happy#bring him the peace he had sought#This is the Simon who found a place within the community the ULA provided#And a mentor in the Undead Prophet#This is the Simon who believes#heart and soul#that he is about to learn how special Kieren is to everyone#about to hear praise for finding someone so incredible#about to hear that he will get to stay with Kieren#and that together they can usher in a new#beautiful#and pain free world together where everyone is treated RIGHT#treated like Simon treats people#with gentleness and patience#This is the Simon who is about to have all of his hopes dashed AGAIN#and he doesn't even know it

 

* * *

 

 

((Tags on Simon saying he is staying, after all))

#Siren#In The Flesh#my favorite thing about this moment#is that Kieren does the thing Simon did early on#just looking at him and raising his eyebrows#letting Simon make the decision#it's up to Simon#Stay or go#Kieren won't pressure him#and I think that's beautiful#Simon is a creature who can and should leave#and leave fast#he's going to be hunted#the people who followed him call him traitor now#they will kill him if they can#they may spare him to take him to the prophet#but whatever happens won't be pretty if Simon stays still enough to get caught#and yet he still considers leaving Kieren to be the worse option#so he stays

 

* * *

 

 

((Tags on Simon at Amy's Wake))

#Nervous Simon#Ashamed Simon#Can't look at my boyfriend because I did a bad thing Simon#kicked puppy Simon#Hopeful Simon#Worried Simon#Guilty Simon#Hanging out at the edge of the wake in case they don't want him there Simon#has bad news for Kieren Simon#Thinks he is bad news for Kieren Simon#Anxious Kieren will reject him Simon#Not daring to hope Kieren will agree to leave with him Simon#Definitely not thinking Kieren will ask him to stay Simon#knowing he has to hit the road again Simon#thinks he's about to be kicked out of the last place he has left Simon#thinks he's about to lose the only people who might care about him Simon#Afraid to tell Kieren the truth Simon#wearing nice clothes instead of terrible sweaters Simon#bashful Simon#SIMON MONROE#I HAVE A LOT OF FEELINGS ABOUT THIS LOOK HE GIVES KIEREN#SEND HELP

 

* * *

 

 

((Tags on Kieren realizing his father is scared of him))

#Kieren Walker#Steve Walker#Walker Family Feels#In the Flesh#This moment absolutely broke my heart#watching Steve take that step backward#watching Kieren's crestfallen look#knowing that he must be realizing that even his family#even these people who should trust him#who KNOW BETTER#who live with him and are SUPPOSED to love him#think that he is a monster#or capable of becoming a monster#kieren is an absolute pacifist#he is gentle and kind and soft#brave and strong and loving#and these people should know that#better than anyone they should know that#should stand up for Kieren#should fight for Kieren#should be able to tell anyone that doubts him that Kieren is /good/#he is amazingly heartbreakingly /good/#pinprick eyes or not#cover up mousse or not#Kieren is good straight to his very fucking CORE#Kieren trusted them to hold that true#to love him#and Steve wavers right here#And Kieren's heart breaks#all he's ever wanted was to be good

 

* * *

 

 

((Tags on Gary and Kieren in the future, added to a photo of their actors hanging out smiling))

#Luke Newberry#Kev Sutton#In the Flesh#Kieren Walker#Gary Kendal#I DID NOT NEED THESE FEELS#but now that I have them#you will have to pry them from my cold dead fingers if you want to take them away#because all this makes me think of is 5 years down the road#when things have gotten better#at some point Gary just /broke/#I mean literally he snaps worse than anything we've seen so far#he doesn't want to be alone#doesn't want to be left behind#Vicky left him#Jem left him#the town starts turning their back on him because he can't seem to stop being an asshole#Dean won't talk to him after what he did to Freddie#Maxine was locked up#Bill's dead#Rick's dead#All he wanted in life was to live a normal life#and the Rising fucked it all up#and he couldn't even keep himself together for that#he was supposed to be a hero#and it's so hard to let go of that#and of all people in the town#Kieren is probably the one with the biggest reasons not to go anywhere near Gary ever again#but it's Kieren#heart of gold

 

* * *

 

 

Timeline meta/headcanon

 **PART 1** : Anonymous asked: Hello, I've read through pretty much all of your ITF meta (because I love these kinds of thinky thoughts!) and I have a question: You say several times that there's a year between s1 and s2 and I wanted to ask how you know that? The only place I can find anyone saying anything about that time is on the BBC site and there it says "It's been nine months since the events of series 1". Is there an interview or something I'm not aware of that specifies this?

Nope no interview. In s1 Jem says she’s three weeks from being 19. In the opening scenes of s2e1 she says she’s almost 20. If I were not so lazy I’d look for a date printed on something in s1 to tell the exact time (since we know Amy died on dec 12) so I could say exactly how long, but based on Jem’s age I’ve just gone with about a year.

There’s also a radio broadcast at the very beginning of s2e1 where the broadcaster says it’s been 18 months since they started reintegration of PDS sufferers so it can’t be longer than that.

Edit: There’s also the year discrepancy that I haven’t bothered to sort out yet. The rising happened in 2009. They are celebrating the 4 year anniversary of the Rising in S1 at the ceremony Jem goes to, where Bill announces Rick’s return. In S2, Kieren says he ate breakfast 5 years ago and is still full. Amy’s coffin says “2009-2013” which is only 4 years. Granted, it’s Dec of 2013, so it’s nearly 2014, which would be 5 years, except we don’t know when the Rising happened in 2009. If it happened at the beginning, then that’s ~5 years, if it happened at the end then that’s only 4. If it happened at the beginning, though, it doesn’t make a lot of sense for people to say that the Risen are the people who died in 2009 (it would make more sense to say “the year before 2009” or something similar)

 **PART 2** : [goldenmeme](http://goldenmeme.tumblr.com/) said: On a similar note, can you think of any instances where it’s indicated how long Amy and Kieren were dead before they rose?

Kieren’s form that Maxine had filled out (regarding his time of rising) has his death date as November 30th. This would mean Kieren was dead for ~20 days before the Rising occurred (on Dec. 20th, 2009)

 **PART 3** : Anonymous asked: Hi! I saw that you're making an ITF timeline thingy and since I got my DVDs in the mail today I thought I could maybe contribute at least on thing? It's the box directly from BBC which has both seasons in it and the summary on the back says that "nine months on" we meet again for series 2. I don't know if the people making the official merch have a direct in with the writers but I guess they do? Maybe? IDK I just thought I'd let you know. :)

Right now, I’m taking Timeline Truth in the order of “what I see/hear on screen” followed by “what I read in script” followed by “what the creator says” followed by “anything else” and the back of the DVD falls into “anything else” for the moment. There are bound to be conflicts between different sources (for example, Amy’s tombstone says she was born in 88 and died in 09, which makes her ~21, but the script says she was 18… so I’m taking 21 and just  _noting_  the conflict in the discrepancies area of the document), so I want to keep everything as uniform as I can. It’s possible the “9 months” will line up with everything else.

 

* * *

 

 

((Praise for ITF))

 **PART 1** : 

I want a series 3 for  _In the Flesh_.

I want more of Kieren Walker not taking anyone’s crap. I want more of Simon learning he can be himself. I want Amy Dyer to be brought back by Halperin and Weston because it was unfair for both of her lives to end early. I want more of Jem learning to accept the changes in her world and learn to stand up for what’s right instead of what’s familiar. I want more of Sue putting her foot down as she learns not to let anyone push her around. I want more of Steve muddling his way through all his emotions. I want more Philip learning that he can stand up for the people who can’t stand up for themselves. I want more of Shirley being the best damn decent human being on the show. I want - well “want” is a strong term here - more of Gary doing shitty things because he learns about 8000 times slower than everyone else.

I want to watch Kieren and Jem work things out between them. I want to see Philip managing his life after Amy. I want to see Sue and Steve arguing themselves to a better place. I want to see what is going on with Halperin and Weston, they are up to some real shady shenanigans. I want to see what the townsfolk are going to do, after losing both Rick and then Amy to the senseless violence of the living. I want to know what is going to happen between Simon and the ULA members that consider him a traitor, and I want to know what the undead prophet really wants. I want to see what Kieren is going to do about Simon, and if Simon will tell Kieren what his mission was the day he saved Kieren’s life.

I want to see the undead realize that they may have a chance at coming back to real life. I want to see how their damaged world will cope with that knowledge, and that actuality. I want to know what happened to those two rabids Kieren rescued in Series 1.

There are SO MANY reasons why I want a series 3 for this show. You have my support- more than that, you have my heart and soul. You have an opportunity to provide a way for a really brilliant show to continue to touch the lives of hundreds of thousands of people, to give those people a show that is deserving of all the love we want to shower it with.

 **PART 2** : 

You know, I was honestly surprised at the arcs a lot of characters got. Jem’s is fantastic- watching the sibling relationship re-form between her and Kieren makes my heart ACHE, and watching her figure out how to stand amongst her former allies/friends(/lover?) in a world with brand new rules (again, because she’s been through the world being turned on its head twice now, and so young!) is marvelous.

 

And it’s really more than just her, all these side characters have these arcs and personalities and lives that really bring the whole town to full life. You get that wonderful sense that when the characters aren’t on your screen they are still doing stuff, the world doesn’t end with what is in front of you.

 

One of my favorite arcs has actually been watching Kieren’s mom and dad, together and separately, trying to cope with everything. Sue going to therapy to talk about how she felt when Kieren “left”, how she feels now that he’s back… her finding him out in the cave and finally being able to tell him the things she should have told him the first time. Having her and Shirley bonding over the whole undead thing, and having her try to deal with Jem as Jem is clawing her way through anger and some serious amounts of PTSD from the war. Watching Kieren’s father BREAK and try to put the pieces back together without a good idea of what the end picture is even supposed to look like because he’s never seen it.

 

GOD I JUST LOVE EVERYONE IN THIS SHOW OK

except you, Gary. Fuck you.

**PART 3** : The entire handling of mental illness through Kieren and Simon made me feel not so isolated and alone.

This right here is one of the most beautiful, amazing aspects of this show, and one of the many, many reasons why it should be saved- it is playing a part in saving others.

It doesn’t even need to be life-or-death saving.  _In the Flesh_  is saving people from feeling isolated or alone. It is saving people from losing hope about the state of the world and the changes even one person can make. It it saving people from feeling like they don’t matter, or worse, from feeling like they  _shouldn’t_  matter. With a huge part of the world, or even just their own part of the world, telling them otherwise, the messages ITF gives to viewers are  _so important_.

Too important to let disappear.

 

 

,zmnvfgb

 


	10. The Undead Boner Discussion (and other undead biology)

**Summary for the Chapter:**

> This entire section is a hot mess of weird science and theoretical bullshit, but it was a hell of a lot of fun at the time.

"Can undead with penises have erections?"

Anonymous asked: hi, i've an itf question. can the males with pds still get it up? sorry for the weird question. just been wondering about sexuality in itf.

 **PART 1** : It’s not a weird question and, in fact, I’ve had this very discussion with [greenbergsays](http://tmblr.co/mGpDMywraA-VDrJJRzOx8wA) in the past few days, so you are not the only one wondering!

I’m not 100% sure which question you are asking when you say “wondering about sexuality on itf” because you could mean you’re wondering how they portray sexualities or you could be wondering how sexual the show is.

The answer to the latter is much shorter so I’ll answer that first: there’s not really much on screen that is sexual. There is an amount of kissing, for more than one set of characters, but it’s slipped in where it can fit. The closest anyone gets to sex is Philip having fantasties (and visiting a brothel where he pays a girl…. to cuddle with him. oh Philip, I love you). To be perfectly honest, the show is too busy having a plot  ~~having 20 plots~~  and developing the characters to focus for too long on anything extraneously sexual.

The answer to your first question may be a little longer. We have not yet been shown any male PDS sufferers engaged in sex (I don’t think there were PDS at the brothel, the males there were living if I recall). No one on screen has ever mentioned dealing with male sexual functions (or not dealing with them, as the case may be). So, in canon, it’s just not been addressed (yet). Let’s be real here; Kieren, we are pretty sure, had never kissed anyone before Simon (the show creator said he believes Kieren and Rick didn’t get there). Simon’s life post-death has been either a mess or else focused on his devotion to the prophet. And we don’t really get to know any other male PDS in a position to perform sexually (there was Freddie, but he wasn’t getting any since his wife was dating another guy, and there was Henry who was hung up on Jem who had no interest).

Given what we HAVE been shown and told, my guess would be no, male PDS sufferers cannot get an erection. All of the PDS sufferers we’ve seen have had coagulated, putrefied black blood that does not flow, which is pretty essential to getting it up. That aside, we’ve also been told that PDS sufferers have no feeling, in terms of touch, not emotion. Amy tells us through Philip that she cannot feel anything, and Kieren shows us more than once that he is the same; we can assume it is like this for the others. This makes stimulation of any nerves that might contribute to arousal impossible.

So, honestly, I think the possibility of physical symptoms of sexual arousal occurring are slim to none in the penis department.

 **PART 2** : [kittysnotahappybunny](http://kittysnotahappybunny.tumblr.com/post/91766423163/hi-ive-an-itf-question-can-the-males-with-pds-still) replied: I googled erections in dead people (oh god, I really hope noone ever takes a closer look at my search history) and there is actually a thing called [terminal erection](https://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FDeath_erection&t=Njk5MWMwMGM0YjI1NjI3NWZjOWU3MDY1ODZmZTE3NTlmNmNmMjBmNCxxNjZxU1JXOA%3D%3D&b=t%3ApDrE-1Xyq8b_UVljyHdNpQ&p=http%3A%2F%2Fkedreeva.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F91781946948%2Fhi-ive-an-itf-question-can-the-males-with-pds&m=0) which happens mostly in people who die of hanging or suffer sudden trauma to the brain stem or damage to major blood vessels. It’s a form of Priapism and if you take a look at the [wikipedia page](https://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FPriapism&t=MjUyOGY1MTI3ZjdmNjhjYzJhMWFiNjJhMDJmYTA1MjhhYmRmYmIzNixxNjZxU1JXOA%3D%3D&b=t%3ApDrE-1Xyq8b_UVljyHdNpQ&p=http%3A%2F%2Fkedreeva.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F91781946948%2Fhi-ive-an-itf-question-can-the-males-with-pds&m=0) for that you’ll see that heroine is listed as a cause for that as well. So, there could be PDS-sufferers with permanent inconvenient boners out there. The sensitivity issue remains though.

I had super considered adding this particular point to my original response but I could not find any reliable answer as to what morticians DO in that case and I stopped looking because I was afraid I would find the answer to be “cut it off.”

 **PART 3** : (Conversation with GreenbergSays

Me: Re: Terminal Erections- I’m told that they eventually go away, so if you are looking for ways to make it possible in fanfiction, you’ll have to keep thinking!

Greenberg: The fact that ‘undead erections’ is an actual tag that you have now.

Me: Don’t judge me, I do what I want. Also Elin solved it for all of you wondering. Doesn’t matter if there’s magic or flowing blood or anything- just have them eat brains. Eating brains makes undead erections possible. It was never about survival…

Me: Also my boyfriend would like me to add for him: “Undead erections solutions: strap-ons. Prosthesis. dildo.”

 **PART 4** : Anonymous asked: No blood in their body =/= no ability to get their dicks up. They don't have any blood in their body, the doctor was shocked to see Amy with blood on her. So with that, there is no way for those with penises to have sex/get hard. I'm not sure why the fandom seems to not really get this, either way, Simon and Kieren do not need a sexual relationship to make it valid, if that is the issue.

You sound a little upset about this issue, and I understand the issue of sex may be a touchy one for some people. However, I believe that some of this may be due to not having not been present for the previous discussions we’ve had here, which discussed all manner of body functions for the undead, up to and including a discussion about sexual body functions. I don’t think I ever made a tag to include all of the asks that happened during that time (or if I did my memory is poor and I have forgotten it), but a large chunk of them got assigned to [this tag](http://kedreeva.tumblr.com/tagged/undead+erections+discussion).

At any rate, whether or not Kieren and Simon can have sex isn’t really the point of the discussion (and I agree is 100% not necessary for a “valid” relationship).

As has been pointed out in our previous discussion on the subject about the biological functions of the undead, blood is also necessary to motor function, so there’s also no reason why they should be able to walk around, either, without blood. We have also used the “no blood” issue as a stepping stone in discussions about whether other fluids, such as tears, are capable of being produced, as we see several characters who appear to be crying, but without tears. Yet, they move. They do not mummify despite not taking in hydration. They have or produce some sort of black liquid but they have no way to circulate it (no heartbeat). It’s been a really long discussion here, and resulted in an “undead boner” discussion once upon a time that many remember and will joke with me about.

So yes. I apologize that our continuing discussion seems to have upset you, but I assure you it had nothing to do with the validity of anyone’s relationship and everything to do with the weird-ass science of the undead body and the discrepancies we see regarding it.

 

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"Biology of the Undead + The Rising Results"

Anonymous asked: Talking about 'getting it up': think there is a fine line between trying to explain how someone can possibly not get sexually aroused and trying to figure out how the whole Rising business works in the first place. I mean, Simon was still shown to be physically strong, even though his blood doesn't flow and his muscles should be deteriorating. Also, the PDS sufferers are no longer composing ...

I completely agree; there comes a point where you hit a brick wall on explaining or figuring out biologically how undead zombies would work (as opposed to viral zombies, for instance). At some stage of the discussion, you have to stop and use the Bill Comptom system for explaining wtf is going on with all this supernatural bullshit: “Magic.”

Curious you should bring up the decomposing part of the theory, though. I’ve always been fascinated by where people draw lines for what the undead body can and cannot do, and decomposing was always my favorite. For my own sanity, I like to believe zombies would decompose given the time, because that means we don’t have to kill them all; we just have to outlive them. And if there are any skills humans are really, really good at, it’s killing things and outliving stuff. On the other hand, I like the terror that comes along with zombies that will literally never go away until exterminated. They could lie dormant in abandoned buildings just waiting for some stimulant to arrive and cause them to give chase. Terrifying.

In this particular case, the matter of decomposition fascinates me because PDS sufferers have come back to life all at once, and the population encompasses an entire year of life (at least that was the impression I was given, that The Rising was an event which occurred once on a certain date, rather than an event which lasted a year and anyone that died within that time came back. I believe this because of the talk about how people who died [to zombies] DURING The Rising did not return to love, as stated by multiple characters). If this is the case, if it was a one-off event that covered a whole year’s worth of dead rising on the same day, then some corpses must be more decomposed than others. Kieren said he was rotting (which is incorrect, meat does not rot but that’s another discussion) for 2 weeks in his grave. So did he die 2 weeks before The Rising happened, or was The Rising going on and it takes 2 weeks for a corpse to reanimate?

And if we do take for true that The Rising was one-off, and there were some people who were a year dead, were they all brought up to a certain level of decay? Or did they NOT decay after death the same way normal people would? Did the first person to die within the time span set off a chain reaction, in which no one that died in that year decomposed but the living never saw it because they buried the dead?

It’s all really fascinating to suppose about together.

 

* * *

 

 

"Were there undead with penises at the brothel?"

Anonymous asked: When the brothel is cleared out in ITF aren't there some male resurrected there as well? Or were they just the bouncers?

I’d have to rewatch (no, no, twist my arm, oh no I have to watch the show over- wait I’m marathoning it tomorrow with [chasingshhadows](http://tmblr.co/mFCn3BXmCNuZkZRyikhzWUw) so I’ll totally check) to be sure, but from what I recall it was only bouncers and patrons that were male. Even so, that doesn’t necessarily create an argument for undead erections… it’s always possible they were bottoming or giving blowjobs or something that did not involve them having an erection themselves.

 

* * *

 

 

"On Amy and Phillip having Sex"

Anonymous asked: Hi, i love your blog and you're really awesome, I was wondering how you think Amy was able to have sex with Phillip? i mean she can't feel anything so i assume that means she can't feel arousal or feel pleasure. She also, being undead, wouldn't be able to produce any lubrication? Sorry for bothering you it's just really been bugging me as to how or why she has had sex, multiple times being undead and all. Thanks!

Hello, love! Thank you! You’re not bothering me at all :)

The “how” is a lot simpler than the “why” so I’ll answer that first. There are many, many synthetic sex lubricant products on the market these days, and lots girls use them, too. Undead or alive, synthetic lubricants can help get things started or go more smoothly or be more enjoyable (and I’d recommend them to anyone who hasn’t tried it out in real life). I assume Amy and Philip were making use of one such product.

As to the “why,” well, there are a lot of reasons people have sex. Of course it should always be a consensual act on both sides, but it doesn’t necessarily have to be about arousal/pleasure. Amy may have had sex with Philip for any number of reasons, although I suspect it is for the same reason Kieren kisses Simon despite that they also cannot feel- the intimacy of the act for them all, being sexually intimate with someone they cared about (or could care about). It is a connection to another person that they need or want to be connected to. It may say things they haven’t found or don’t know words for. It may be that she remembers what it was like and enjoys reliving that sense memory. Maybe she simply wanted to see Philip aroused and enjoying it.

I hope that helps!

 

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"Are the undead unfeeling?"

 **PART 1** : Anonymous asked: just a reminder that the undead aren't unfeeling. the nortriptyline (not sure of the spelling sorry) reconnects pathways in the brain and allows the undead to feel again. in s2e1 keiren complains about his eyes hurting from the contacts and the dr explains it.

Hello! Yes, I had considered that (and I believe it’s Neurotriptyline), but in the end I believe that particular description/explanation and moment is negligible in light of the rest of the evidence to the contrary.

The way the doctor explains it (specifically says a few of them will be pain receptors) makes me think that if they have any feeling at all, it is not a lot. In fact, the only times we’ve seen the undead claim to feel anything has been regarding their eyes- Kieren when he visits for contacts to go to Paris, and the store clerk who had to take them out because they were “killing” him.

Amy, on the other hand, specifically states several times that she feels nothing- no pinched cheek, no cold, no rain on her cheeks. Despite below-freezing temps, Kieren only dons his winter wear in order to seem like a normal person (hiding his coat in the bushes while he goes to the party, pretend shivering and leaving his hoodie on so his dad feels better, etc). Simon has an operation down the entirety of his spine and takes a bullet to the back without seeming to feel any pain. Amy takes a pole through her belly from Kieren without feeling any pain- in fact, she points and laughs at him afterward.

So, I’m going to remain of the stance that they are, by and large, a species without sensation.

 **PART 2** : Anonymous asked: Hi! I've recently mainlined all of In the Flesh and am really enjoying reading your meta. So! I have a question. What are your thoughts about the details of Kieren's rising, when he says he felt the wind and rain on his fingertips when he was pushing out of his grave, in 3x04? From what we've learned from Amy, PDS sufferers can't actually feel anything, except perhaps at their injection spot, so I'm perplexed by Kieren's experience.

Hello! Sorry for the delayed response!

There are two basic theories contending for the answer to this, at least in my head. I like them both equally well, so I’ll give them both to you and you can decide which you like.

The first is the simplest: Kieren was embellishing his story in order to make it as dramatic as possible for Gary. We saw footage of Kieren’s rising in Season 1, and he was definitely not first. In fact, he wasn’t even second! There are at least 3 different people already tromping around his grave when he claws his way into the open. (we should consider that “first risen” may not necessarily mean “first out of the grave” but may, in fact, mean “first to wake up in their coffin” in which case anyone’s witness account of them coming out of the ground could be flawed) This is evidenced easily by how he deals with Simon’s interruptions.

> Simon: Are you sure you were alone”  
> Kieren: “No”  
> Simon: “Where any of the other graves open?”  
> Kieren: “The other graves were fine.”

He expressly says he isn’t sure he was alone, and he avoids saying the other graves were closed, just that they were “fine.” So, given that he embellished this VERY IMPORTANT part of the story, it’s completely possible he was adding in “senses” details that were not true, either, for the benefit of dragging Gary (and the others) into the story deeper.

The second explanation is slightly more horrifying, and that is that the rabid undead DO feel. We know that they at least feel hunger, and we know that many of them remember things from their untreated state. If Kieren was telling the truth, they are even semi-intelligent/intelligent, with the ability to seek out prey and hunt together; they just appear to have lacked the ability to feel the emotions/empathy/regret/morality that “makes one human” so to speak. I think it’s very possible that the rabid undead were sensation-feeling creatures, and that the Neurotriptyline actually inhibited that ability. They traded sesnse-touch for full intelligence. This might even be evidenced by the fact that Amy’s trembling/side effects were a sign that she no longer needed the medication (or was getting to that stage). One of the last stages of not-needing-the-medication was her ability to feel touch sensations again.

As an aside, [greenbergsays](http://tmblr.co/mGpDMywraA-VDrJJRzOx8wA) and I were actually discussing this earlier, and there’s a good chance that the homemade Neurotriptyline sped up the process for Amy, and that leads me to believe even more than the not-homemade Neurotriptyline may be inhibiting some things.

**PART 3** : Anonymous asked: I think your theory about why the undead can't feel is right. When they were cleaning the hospital, the doctor explains to Kieren that the two caged rabids can't attack because they were already under the Neurotriptyline and that it sedates them, so i think it could maybe work as an anaesthetic too and therefore, no feelings. (sorry about the english btw)

No worries about the English <3

I actually think the phrasing the Doc used in the Roarton hospital was “they’re sedated  _prior to_  the Neurotriptyline taking effect” which would mean that, until they start becoming “human” again, they are sedated (presumably under the “safety” reasoning). So I don’t know about anesthetic, but I’m sure it could have a similar effect- or even that they have to use sedatives  _until the sedative in the Neurotriptyline takes effect_. Hm hm hm….

**PART 4:**[goldenmeme](http://goldenmeme.tumblr.com/) said: What’s your take on whether they can still smell or taste things?

Well, we’ve been given no indication that they can (that I can recall, no one’s mentioned smelling or tasting anything), and I don’t see that they would be able to, as those senses depend on nerve action the same as touch… but then again, so does vision and hearing.

So, I would say that you could go either way with reasonable accuracy. I prefer to think that they can do both until I’m specifically told otherwise.

 

 

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“On the biology of the feral undead re:Simon going home/Kieren recognizing Jem”

Anonymous asked: If rabids are capable of thought, and aware of personal connections and bonds, like the rabid father and daughter, why do you think Simon killed his mum? Was it because she was living rather than undead like him, and the hunger overshadowed everything else? Also, it's interesting how Simon went home on the night of the Rising. Unless he was buried near his house and it was one of the closest places to him, why would he go there? It sounds like he almost chose to.

Hi there! I already wrote about Simon going home upon rising. As to the other part of this question, about the bonds they can and cannot recognize, I think that you’re 100% correct. The undead, as we have seen, do not recognize the living as “one of their own” like they do with other undead. I think Simon recognized the place, but maybe not the person.

Now, I do have a small theory regarding the feral undead at the time of their rising versus later on. I think that, upon rising, they are (as we are told many times) in a very primitive state. They are at their worst; newly reborn, ravenous, and as close to unthinking as they will be. They seek out human brains in order to… well, in my opinion, to self-medicate.

Kieren tells us that neurotriptyline regenerates glial cells, which are vital to brain function. I figure that consuming the brain in some way allows them to process the glial cells of their victims, maybe replenishing their own (I’m going to hand-wave at how much that is not how it should work, because I’m going to assume there are supernatural forces at work here) and allowing them to function. However, if that’s the case, then consuming human (or sheep, or maybe just any) brain matter may actually bring them an amount of domesticated cognitive function- ie, it may turn them more human.

Simon, however, is still in the most basic, feral, just-rose-from-the-grave state when he reaches his house. It’s the same night as his rising, he probably hasn’t gotten to feed before he gets home. As an undead, he doesn’t recognize his living mother as anything other than prey, and he attacks. It’s not difficult to assume that his father is the one who captured him, somehow, and that his mother was the only one Simon killed before going to the research facility, which may account for WHY Simon doesn’t remember anything from his time as a rabid; he might not have consumed any other brain matter, might not actually have consumed any part of his mother’s brain either, depending on when he was found out by his father. So Simon might not have any lucid feral moments TO remember.

This theory would also explain why Kieren didn’t, to our knowledge, attack Jem, or at least account for his hesitation when she happens upon him. He had just freshly fed on brain matter, and may have been in his most-cognizant state of being while feral (especially considering that we see a second body that they probably had fed upon as well).

 

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"Do the undead need to breathe?"

[21hax](http://21hax.tumblr.com/) asked: hi there! i recently got into ITF and stumbled on your blog and i absolutely love all your meta. these zombie cuties are gonna be the death of me. i'm not sure if maybe you addressed this already, i haven't been through all your answers, but do you think the undead in ITF need to breathe? it seems to be a common headcanon expressed in fanfic that they don't, but PDS characters all breathe normally in the show, like gasping when they run and stuff. i was just wondering your take on that!

Hi! I’m glad you are enjoying :) Thanks for talking! I have not, in fact, addressed breathing in the undead!

There are two parts to the answer, but I think both are short.

The first part of your answer is no, I do not think the undead in ITF  _need_  to breathe. The reason that we breathe is to draw air into our lungs so all the little capillaries in and around them can take what they need and our blood can take oxygen (and stuff) to the rest of our bodies. This is really only possible because our hearts are beating, and as theirs are not… no need to breathe. It literally would do nothing for them.

On the other hand, there are other reasons a person draws breath- the most obvious being speech. Beyond that, breathing - much like a heartbeat - is an autonomous function, meaning that we continue to breathe whether or not we are thinking about breathing, so that we don’t do things like stop breathing in our sleep. Unlike a heartbeat, we do have control over our breathing, but this is also to prevent us from doing silly things like drowning if we put our head under water.

Since the brains of the undead are still, on some level, functioning (even in their rabid state, as they are continuing to record memory or Kieren and company would not have flashbacks), it stands to reason that they would continue to breathe automatically regardless of whether or not they actually need to do so. It also stands to reason that, if they are thinking about it, they can hold their breath (or stop breathing anyway) indefinitely.

 

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"Can the undead cry?"

Anonymous asked: Hi! About your tags on that Kieren post - I don't think it's ever stated explicitly in the show that PDS sufferers can't cry. In the cave scene with his mum Kieren cries, and when Rick shows Bill what he looks like without the coverup etc. he's also crying, so I think the whole no-crying thing is just a fandom invention? Love your blog and meta, by the way.

It’s never explicitly stated, but we do know their bodies do not function as a living person’s body functions. They do not produce blood any longer, and I think it’s assumed that they no longer produce other body fluids, such as sweat or tears.

I don’t have the videos in front of me at this very second so I can’t check, but I was under the impression that in any of the scenes where people “cry” there are not actual tears in any of the shots. They make the crying face, breathe like they are crying, but there’s no actual tears.

Does anyone have screen caps that shows otherwise? I would love to have copies :)

 

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"Why does undead eye appearance vary?"

Anonymous asked: I just read through 12+ pages of itf meta and I think its safe to say I have a problem. Anyway I just noticed that the PDS peoples' pupils sometimes look different? Like Simon's are very sharp and defined (the iris is discolored, but the pupils still have a clear round shape and dark coloring) while Kieren's, Amy's, and Ken's wife's were all sort of... muddled? The iris is always white-ish/discolored but the pupil varies a bit. Why do you think this is?

Why do I think this is, in reality, is because they were messing with different contacts in series 1 than they were in series 2. I think they wanted to give the impression that their eyes were somehow decomposing as well, but there’s not a really good way to do that because eyes kind of uh… “deflate” so to speak, post mortem. In series 2 they seem to have gone with just something that is probably easier on the actors to wear and see out of for extended periods of time (ie, since Simon basically never wears contacts, it means poor Emmett must always be wearing them).

Why do I think it is, if I had to come up with an in-‘verse reason? Even Kieren’s eyes change toward the end of season 2, when he stops wearing his contacts. If you look at his eyes in S1 when he is feral, his pupils are just as messy and oddly-shaped/marred as Maggie’s were… but by the end of S2 when he’s at the wake, his eyes seem pretty normal (aside from being white). The same seems to be true of Amy, whose undead eyes in Kieren’s flashbacks are certainly a lot more “dead” or decomposed-looking than her eyes when she is talking to Philip in the tent asking him to kill her.

Let’s back up a little and take a look at what happens to eyes after death- the iris (which is the part of your eye that has color), is actually a muscle. When it contracts, your pupils get tiny, and when it relaxes, your pupils get large. It does this without you having to think about it, to adjust for light, etc, and - like the rest of the muscles in your body - it reacts to death by losing its ability to do this. Sometime after death, the iris will relax, and you will potentially only see pupil or at least largely dilated pupils, giving the eye the appearance of being mostly white and pupil, with a thin halo of color around them (which I believe is the effect they were going for, usually). Exposure to the air can dry out the cornea/whites etc and cause various effects, such as a red lesion line (called “tache noire”), and clouding (where the pupil beings to look blue because the cornea/lens/vitreous humor has stopping being moist/getting oxygen).

Given that the show is heading toward the undead coming back to life, and granting that Amy’s death-wounds seems to have healed and any decomposition she may have suffered seems to have reversed, we can assume that this effect is happening similarly to others such as Kieren and Simon.

 

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"On undead aging + Character ages)

Anonymous asked: _At first, sorry this will be long:) but I really enjoy your ITF metas and would like to ask you about the character’s age. So we know from the show that in 2013 Kieren is 22, Jem is 19 and Amy is 25 and that’s all about canon information (if I’m right?) I usually go with the „actor’s age – character’s age” thing which makes Simon circa 34. So I searched for the age of minor characters’ actors, and found that Sandra Huggett (Shirley) was 40 in 2013. If that’s Shirley’s age, too, then she was a teenager when Philip was born cause he looks older than 20. Personally I really like the idea of Shirley being a single teen mother but then I gave up with the „actor’s age – character’s age” logic cause the age difference between Francis Magee (Iain) and Emmett Scanlan is ten years: so either Iain is older then his actor or Simon is younger. I know it sounds silly but I’d really like to know your thoughts about characters’ age cause I still have no idea about Gary, Rick, Philip or even Simon…_

Hi there! We actually don’t have to wonder much about their ages, as [the scripts are available free for download](https://t.umblr.com/redirect?z=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fwritersroom%2Fscripts%2FIn-the-Flesh-Series-2&t=ZTg4OGRjMmZkZDk1ZjU3NmRjZmIwZWU1N2I1NDZlMTBhNTIyMTRkYyw0cDhhZ1FPbQ%3D%3D&b=t%3ApDrE-1Xyq8b_UVljyHdNpQ&p=http%3A%2F%2Fkedreeva.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F99183084638%2Fat-first-sorry-this-will-be-long-but-i-really&m=0), and most of the characters have their ages listed in the scripts ([here is a post which details a lot of the characters’ ages for Series 1](http://kedreeva.tumblr.com/post/91780671908/season-one-ages) according to the script). I think the only “major” character whose age is not listed is Simon, and we were “told” his age in [a graphic BBC3 released of Simon’s headstone](http://kedreeva.tumblr.com/post/94334385273/monroesimon-why-is-this-the-first-time-that-i), which listed his birth year as 1982 (making him 27).

Additionally, the undead characters seem go by how old they were when they died. For example, Kieren’s age is “18” even though it’s been four years since he died at the age of 18. I think this is due mostly to the fact that they technically didn’t live through those years, and they didn’t physically age during those years. The real question, and one that is left unanswered, is do they/would they continue to use that age as their age, if they were going to remain immortal (as opposed to rehumanizing, like Amy, where they would begin to physically age).

This really brings to light a LOT of super intriguing questions about what “age” really is- for instance, if a child like Maisy (the undead child Kieren rescues from Bill, Rick, Gary, and Dean in the woods) were to die, come back, and live on immortally, she would begin to “grow up” mentally, but not physically. We, as humans, tend to count age strictly on how old a person is physically (for example, we have no reliable scale for “mental” age, if someone feels older/younger, or if someone is regressed or excels on a mental level, etc), so would she remain a “child” age forever? Would she be allowed to drink alcohol? To drive? Have sex? Get married? Own a house? If someone who had died of old age, or who was infirm or injured or otherwise incapable of “young age” work/care for themselves, Rose Again, would they be forced to work for the money to survive? Would there be societal assistance for those who couldn’t? Society would have to create a whole new set of rules about age and interaction for the PDS.

Lastly, there is one odd note between the show and the script I found- there is a discrepancy that is (imo) fairly important, and that is Amy’s age. In the script, it says she is 18, but on her grave if you could the years between birth and death, it’s actually (if I recall correctly) 21 (1988-2009). Even if her birthday had been on Dec 31st 1988 and she died Jan 1st 2009, the youngest she could have been was 20. Personally, I will usually take what is on my screen as canon over something which is in a script or interview, simply because if I did not have access to a script or to view an interview, what is on screen would be the only canon. So, to me, Amy is older.

 

* * *

 

 

“If the undead become living, will they retain their injuries/cause of death?”

Anonymous asked: If all of the undead are going to turn back human, won't some of them die from their injuries? Kieren's wrists are only held together by stitches, Simon has had his back cut open and spine exposed also only held together by stitches, some have been shot. I feel it's going to be very interesting to watch that play out...

I don’t think they will have injuries by the time their hearts start beating. It would be really quite useless to have the dead come back to life after even just a little while, if the process didn’t involve physical healing before their hearts stopped beating, because of the way the body begins to putrefy/break down.

We put a lot of preservatives (like embalming fluid) into human bodies to keep them looking ok for funerals, but the breakdown begins from the moment of death, and even just a few hours without proper care can be enough to render organs etc useless. If the undead were to rehumanize with zero healing, it would be just to die again immediately.

We also witness Amy being full of blood when Maxine stabs her, when I’m 100% sure that if Amy was buried she was probably embalmed. We’ve seen the undead only having black liquid for “blood” in the few instances any of it is present in an injury. Amy clearly regenerated her blood through some means, and since she didn’t immediately die from the stab wound Kieren gave her in season 1, I’m guessing other parts of her healed.

My theory would be that her “symptoms” were all leading up to a phase of healing, starting with her being able to feel the rain and ending on the 12th hour of the 12th day of the 12th month- and that is when her heart started beating because the healing was done and process was complete. I think the others that rehumanize will share a similar experience, with shaking/forgetting/etc leading to a reboot of their nervous system (which is responsible for telling where pain/injury is so it can be healed), followed by a short but intense amount of healing, and ending in a restarted heart.

**RELATED ASK** : [kisameanslight](http://kisameanslight.tumblr.com/) asked: _Hey, I just saw you talking about that the future may hold for Simon and Kieren and I kinda wanted to share what I think can happen (I've been thinking about this for weeks and I need to talk to someone about this ok sorry). I think that we may see Simon depressed again? I mean, the ULA wasn't just a cult he belonged to, the ULA was his LIFE. The ULA meant all the love and acception he never had in his life and it meant safety on this new hostile world. And it was just taken away from him_   _and then he met Amy, this beautiful girl who had so much will to live inside her, this beautiful girl who became his FRIEND; not just another follower, but a real friend. And she was also taken away from him. He has a lot of loss to deal with. He also has Kieren, which is why I think he’ll lean on Kieren and hope he magically takes away all his pain. Which won’t work. Kieren is just a person. And I’m so worried of what may happen to him but at the same time I know that Kieren will be there for him and idek if I make sense but this is just something that is very likely to happen in the future so yea_

I suspect that we may see Simon fall into depression as well, although I tend to think it will be after he has rehumanized (after all, if it was the way he was wired, when things go back to “normal” then why wouldn’t that come back?). It’s interesting to consider if he goes into that tailspin early, though.

What really strikes me from what you’ve said is “Kieren is just a person.” That’s a lovely, lovely sentiment that I hope will persist in his characterization.

**RELATED ASK** : Anonymous asked: I have a theory about the whole "coming back to life"-thing: leaving the embalming apart, the blood obviously starts flowing in their bodies again, as shown by Amy's nosebleeding. So if the blood flows again, this means that the body can start healing itself, as in, the normal bodily functions to start healing will pick up again and their wounds should be able to close/get proper treatment, etc.

An excellent theory! Also, remember that whatever the black stuff inside them is (my honest guess is probably putrefied blood… ick, let’s not think about that too much), it can seep/flow an amount; Freddie Preston also gets a nosebleed when he is going rabid.

They also vomit up that black liquid when they go rabid (the school kid whose name I forget, the ULA members on the tram, Freddie, and Kieren all do, at least), and that probably isn’t leftover… i dunno, stomach acid or whatever. So their bodies appear to be producing SOMEthing… I wonder if that’s the best it can do by way of “blood” until a certain point?

 **RELATED ASK** : Anonymous asked: Hello, I was the anon who asked you a few days ago about if you thought the undead would die from their wounds, specifically Simon's back wound? I just realized that when we were with Amy watching Simon dress he didn't even have the wound on this back? Ahhh sorry to waste time asking about it!

Hi and welcome back! I hope you see this, because you were right the first time! Simon does, indeed, still have a back wound, it’s just been stitched up and closed as much as possible. Still looks horrible. I went back and found the part, because I was very certain I remember being horrified by what could have possibly caused that for him. it was every bit as horrible as I remembered.

 **RELATED ASK** : 

[marigoldmylove](http://marigoldmylove.tumblr.com/) asked: _hello!! I just joined the itf fandom and you seem like the person to go to for talkin bout things, so I was wondering - obviously the undead no longer suffer from their physical ailments, but do you think the mental aspects of what inevitably killed them are gone as well? I mean, I'm assuming kieren was severely depressed when he committed suicide, so is he still dealing with that now? and, along those same lines, (again assuming) if simon was a drug addict before he died, even if he’s clean now, wouldn’t the syringes of medication he has to take be triggering for him?_

Hello! Welcome to the fandom! I am happy to talk about things with anyone that wants to! Though, I think in this fandom everyone’s pretty happy to talk about everything with anyone, because so far everyone I’ve seen has been really nice and respectful and full of thinky thoughts.

This is actually something I have debates with myself about- whether or not their mental state will revert once their brains are able to maintain homeostasis without the NTL dose.

First I wanna say that I think that Kieren wasn’t suffering from depression; he was grieving, yes, but I think Simon was the one with depression whereas it seems more likely that Kieren suffered anxiety (“everything before that was fear, just different levels of fear” and the way he retreats to calm down etc).

That being said, and taking into account that their physical injuries (and/or conditions, illnesses, etc) seem likely to heal (ie: Amy’s wounds obviously healed, and we are free to assume she was no longer afflicted with leukemia even though technically we can’t be 100% sure one way or the other), I think that their mental states would be stable as well. Just like it wouldn’t make a lot of sense to have them come back from the dead and rehumanize just to die again of their injuries, it wouldn’t make a lot of sense to have them come back in the same mental state that may have had a hand in their demise.

The point is, I believe, to have a second chance at life in a way they didn’t have before. For Amy, this means being leukemia free. For Simon this means being depression free. For Kieren this means being anxiety [disorder] free.

I can see the other side of the coin, too, though. I mean, the direct cause of Kieren and Simon’s deaths (deep-vein lacerations to Kieren’s forearms and a heroine overdose for Simon) would technically heal (the lacerations heal, the drugs aren’t in his system), leaving them alive just fine.

But that just doesn’t seem FAIR, you know? To go through everything they’ve been through and become these new people, to grow into being new people with one another, just to one day find your heart beating and these things that caused you so much distress suddenly return to bite you in the ass… I really hope that’s not the direction this goes.

 

* * *

 

 

“Will PDS children develop mentally or remain the same age?”

Anonymous asked: Hopefully you haven't been asked this before but what are your thoughts on very young PDS? Like toddlers or babies who died in 2009? Mostly what I'm wondering about is their mental state. Are they able to mature as PDS sufferers or are they just eternally stuck as 2 year olds (or whatever age they died at)? I was thinking b/c it would suck to have the mind of a 15 y/o in a baby's body or just be a baby forever. Pretty sure no one has addressed this on the show so just wondering what you think.

This is really tricky and gets into the science of brain function, so let’s see how far we can reasonably take this discussion before I don’t know enough to keep going, shall we?

Technically what we’ve been told is that the rabid undead’s brains don’t produce glial cells (Kieren says “gial” cells, but I believe he mis-spoke because as far as I’m aware there’s no such thing). Glial cells do a lot for the brain (they surround and stabilize neurons, feed neurons oxygen and nutrients, keep neurons from touching one another inappropriately, protect the neurons from dangerous pathogens, aid or inhibit repair to neurons, and remove any dead neurons they find– In short, Kieren’s right, they’re vital to proper brain function), but they are also responsible for forming myelin, which is super important.

Myelin, if you don’t know is the stuff that, and I’m simplifying here, coats the electrical pathways of neurons. Without it, neurons both function slower. When the myelin sheath is formed on a neuron, it creates a “faster” pathway for electrical signals to travel down. Instead of having to travel from point A to point B on one continuous line hitting every physical space in between, the pulse can “skip” over chunks of the pathway and get to its destination faster.

However, myelin is more than just a speed-increaser. Without the protection the myelin sheath provides, neurons would decay and die. This is super bad and causes all sorts of really terrible problems.

So the rabid undead can’t produce these cells that stop that from happening, and keep their brains functioning, so it’s safe to say that they aren’t forming any new pathways and will eventually suffer what amounts to brain death. I’m assuming the reason they eat brains is to stimulate some amount of glial cell growth or replacement or something that probably doesn’t make scientific sense so let’s hand wave some magic at it and move on.

The treated PDS sufferers of this world are being given neurotriptyline, which Kieren says stimulates glial cell growth. Okay, so now we have them functioning “normally” in the brain cell department. Chances are they’ve lost some memories, and definitely we see they haven’t encoded much while rabid, which makes sense if the pathways forming were not being cared for properly. But they ARE now. So, we see new pathways being formed (memories and learning), and we see them not losing cognitive function.

 _However_ , we also know that the brain doesn’t really finish forming itself until the mid-to-late teenage years (arguably beyond that, but we see a  _major_ shift in the way people think and encode data from ages 10-20, and this shift generally occurs ~16-18, which is typically why things like “you’re an adult legally” and “legal consent” are placed in this age range).

So the question is, then, how  _much_  does the neurotriptyline fix within the undead brain? Are glial cells the only thing it stimulates? Are glial cells the only thing that isn’t “happening as it would normally”? At the end of the day, we have no idea if brain development is stunted/ceased at the time of death. Personally, I would assume so, as nothing else grows/regenerates (they don’t age, they don’t scar or heal)… but then there’s the neurotriptyline.

As we haven’t been given any reason/proof to believe the neurotriptyline also stimulates brain development, I would say that I do not think the young children would “grow up” mentally. They should continue to form memories, but they would, in my opinion, still process information like a 2 year old or a 5 year old or whatever.

 **RELATED ASK** : [fiveyearmission](http://fiveyearmission.tumblr.com/) said: The thing is about the brain function is…it might be a moot point. An infant or a small child likely wouldn’t have been able to crawl up out of their grave. So they would have been trapped there until they starved. :(

The thing is, that’s not necessarily true. We see a young girl, maybe 6-8 years old, as a rabid in the woods with her father in S1. There might very well be cases where rabids aided others in coming back- parents who died with their children, for example. As I’ve said before, I don’t think the rabids are  _unthinking_ , I think they are just  _feral_. Capable of thought, but not domesticated, not civilized like we think of it. 

 

* * *

 

 

"On Kieren's Walk"

[21hax](http://21hax.tumblr.com/) asked: a lot of people point out kieren's cute waddle-run and i think they usually attribute it to luke newberry or something. but i feel like it's because of PDS?? like with rick and his limp, i know he died in an explosion and the script alluded to his leg being held together with metal, but i feel like most undead would walk funny because i mean, think about how you walk when just one of your legs is numb? i can't think of an instance of another undead running in the show but idk what do you think?

“cute waddle-run” has been on my mind all morning. It never once occurred to me that this might be something true to Luke rather than true to Kieren. I’ve always placed it in “Luke is acting fantastically by walking and running stiff-legged, as though he were actually risen dead.”

I personally think of it more like a lope, and I think that your assessment of why it occurs is spot-on. I think that there’s an amount of “numb” feeling to how the undead move, but I wonder as well how much rigor mortis plays a part in the stiffness of anyone’s movements. The only other instance I can think of is Simon running to save Kieren, and we don’t actually see him do that, we just see him set off, and we see him afterward. We do see Amy kind of come toward Kieren quickly when they first meet, though she’s adopting movements that are abnormal to her to play-act so I don’t think we can really consider that.

How much motor control did Kieren lose in death? Obviously a good amount of leg muscle movement if the way he runs/walks is any indication. We see that he can still draw and manipulate things, but does it take more concentration now? Is he slower at it? Does he get frustrated at the differences? Is this something they have to work on in therapy before they can go home, stuff like holding pens and opening doors and the like? Kieren is allowed to handle glassware at the Legion, so is it better for him than others? There are so many questions I have about this subject!

 **RELATED ASK** : [goldenmeme](http://goldenmeme.tumblr.com/) replied: I’m not sure rigor Morris would play a role at all. It’s a fairly brief phase; I think it only lasts a few hours after death. Then the body goes pliable again.

Normally I would agree with you, as you’re absolutely right- rigor sets in shortly after death and lasts a few hours (I think 2-8 hours is typical).

 

But we must take into account that that rigor is (simply) a condition in the body where the muscles contract due to an incomplete chemical process (basically calcium binding to tropnin causing myosin heads and actin proteins to remain connected and disallowing muscle relaxation). The reason the muscles eventually do relax (go pliable) is actually because the muscles start to putrefy, and those bindings decompose/break.

 

In the case of the undead, however, how much decomposition has really taken place and/or not been reversed in order for them to be up and walking around? Because it seems like everyone kind of… reverted back to the state they were in when they died, rather than the state their body was in on the day of the Rising.

 

So, if you had someone that reverted back to, say, 12 hours after death (because 12 seems to be a magic number, 144k risen (12x12), first risen must be killed on the 12th hour of the 12th day of the 12th month etc), their body might have just been coming out of rigor (providing nothing slowed or sped the process).

 

All of which is really why I say I wonder how much a part it plays in the movement ability of the undead. Maybe nothing. Maybe something… I wish I knew!

 

((Adding here that Luke Newberry did an interview discussing the walk, but it has since been removed))

 

* * *

 

 **Extras** :

 **PART 1** : Anonymous asked: omg, what if they address the "getting it up" factor as part of Kieran regaining his living state (like Amy did)?? Blood flowing, beginning to feel, resulting in awkward, and supposedly impossible, boners?

I can’t decide if I’m there for this or if it’s too hilarious for them to put in.

Theoretically I’m there for this. I’m SUPER into Kieren returning to real life first, before Simon, and all that could and would entail. SUPER THERE FOR THAT.

 **PART 2** : [solitarianknight](http://solitarianknight.tumblr.com/) asked: I have something to add to the previous discussion of the sexual ability of the male PDS suffers. As of right now I totally agree that they probably can't "get it up" since their blood doesn't really flow and such and they have no nervous system feeling. However, it has been hinted that the PDS sufferers maybe regaining their sense of touch and blood flow as seen by amy's last few moments and the idea that she bled out. I know it's not really important but it was a thought that came to mind.

Oh, absolutely! Actually there was an interview I read this afternoon (someone linked it to me, and it was between the creator of the show and an interviewer) and in it, the showrunner talked about “rehumanization” where in the PDS undead were always supposed to come back the same way as Amy.

So, I think they’re heading down that road, to where they will regain the ability to do things like have nervous system reactions to stuff, but until then we get to guess at the mechanics of undead erections. Because fandom. We know how to ask the REALLY important questions.

 **PART 3** : [luneroi](http://hydrangeas.co.vu/) asked: So about the undead erection thing, sense the last time we saw Kieren, he was doing the weird hand thing just like Amy which I can only assume he's turning human, so sense he's turning human does that mean he can get erections again? (It also makes me think that if he can get erections again that Simon might be doing a lot of power bottoming for a while ヾ(●ﾟⅴﾟ)ﾉ)

Bottom!Simon was literally the first thought in my head when I had time to process Kieren shaking meant he was coming back to life. I then took this revelation to [qhuinn](http://tmblr.co/mad-awY2xmoSlE-qVCD1jOA) because Qhuinn deserves all the bottom!Simon she can imagine.

But yes, I assume that Kieren will (eventually) get the ability to have erections back. It did take Amy a little while to come back to life enough to bleed and have a heartbeat etc, so I doubt that it’ll happen to Kieren quickly.

I have also spent a looot of time thinking of all the ways Simon will approach Kieren having feeling back. All the touching. Sweet, gentle, drive-him-crazy touching. Yes, good. We should talk more about the interim between Kieren being human and Simon being human.

 **PART 4** : Greenbergsays said: Kedreeva has found a solution to the blood flow problem that prevents undead boners.  _Zombie pacemakers_.

It’s too early for my brain to connect to my mouth, I cannot believe these words actually made it out of my face what have I become


End file.
